Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Self Sustainable Farming


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#21 tenjin

tenjin

    dizzy with possibilities

  • Expired Member
  • 1,386 posts

Posted 26 January 2011 - 12:57 PM

since you are wanting to save seed, you should definitely look into cross-pollination. and like Bev said, you could end up with some funky fruits (or overall poor growth), but you won't know it until you save the seeds and grow them out the next year. cross-pollination can be a serious problem with different varieties of the same species if you plan on saving seeds to grow out later.

#22 toadshroom

toadshroom

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 490 posts

Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:15 AM

Get on utube and check out "permaculture".
You'll get many hits for good organic gardening and how to set up your garden the way things work in nature.

Companion gardening might be worthwhile too.
I'm starting a garden this spring and i'm ordering heirloom seeds only.
No geneticly modified shit for me
Monsato can go to hell, which I'm sure they will.

#23 Justintime

Justintime

    Justincase

  • OG VIP
  • 3,055 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 27 January 2011 - 11:14 AM

Calling out Drunkinmaster, miss our chats bud..:cry:

#24 mycowarrier

mycowarrier

    former blockhead

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 3,559 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 27 January 2011 - 11:18 AM

Hey Justin, DM has'nt been back since he started this thread. I was wondering if you heard from him. It's not like him to stay gone so long. Hope he's ok.

When he gets back he'll be pleasantly surprised how big his thread grew :thumbup:

#25 mycowarrier

mycowarrier

    former blockhead

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 3,559 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:20 PM

Bump for my friend Drunkinmaster :bow:
Great thread and info :thumbup:

#26 DrunkinMaster

DrunkinMaster

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 441 posts

Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:13 PM

wow this thread when crazy huh! sorry everyone, i've been working lately, and the rest of the time im studying for this huge crop im planning on! I've got pleanty of time before the season. so no worries. Plus, i will keep topia posted, have plenty of pix for everyone to watch me fail.[jk]:rasta: But seriously, i'll be keeping everyone posted as long as there's interest! This is going to get quite interesting. I have two separate locations im able to do this in, and one of them is a very big farm.:eusa_clap[family's]
Im going to try and respond to everyone here...

what sort of climate are you in?

It would be a idea to have a few animals, to dispose of the waste greens, and to have manure for nutrients replacement, like a goat or pony.

Also my advice would be to start with a hand full of varieties and gradually increase them year by year.

Hope all goes to plan for you.


This is my handful. lol ive done plenty of veggies in the years before., i really just want to expand my mindset on all the kinds i possibly can for the climate im in. not to mention seed production. Which for now is somewhere southwestern usa. i have the time, the space, and with what mushroom growing has taught me dearly, PATIENTS haha.
Also, with my studies I've realized i just shit out a lot of money on some bunk seeds. I was buying lots of strains that had to word "hybrid" on them. not realizing they were bunk. Making the number one thing i want to learn from all this, which is producing viable seeds, impossible. so that's what you get if you try and prepare without studying..lol Google is your friend.:heart:

The library has proven incredibly useful in the areas of corn breeding.

Get on utube and check out "permaculture".
You'll get many hits for good organic gardening and how to set up your garden the way things work in nature.

Companion gardening might be worthwhile too.
I'm starting a garden this spring and i'm ordering heirloom seeds only.
No geneticly modified shit for me
Monsato can go to hell, which I'm sure they will.


Well thanks man, I had no idea youtube would have anything useful to show for. good stuff.

since you are wanting to save seed, you should definitely look into cross-pollination. and like Bev said, you could end up with some funky fruits (or overall poor growth), but you won't know it until you save the seeds and grow them out the next year. cross-pollination can be a serious problem with different varieties of the same species if you plan on saving seeds to grow out later.


I've been studying on it fruitlessly and im aware of the issues. I stated above that i have plenty of areas to do this so any melon varieties, for example, can be planted at the different locations. and there's more then 1000 feet of area in the farm that im going to be able to do this in. Plenty of room to separate haha. I've also been planing, for this to be largely manual for the pollination..meaning i'm planning on keeping the bees out of this:eusa_snoo



you need to plant corn in rows so they will pollinate each other. as far as your waste, start a compost pile and let it set for a year and till it into your garden. if you are going to plant all that i would highly recommend you invest in a tiller. will make your life alot easier and your back will thank you for it too. also dont forget to mulch, i use straw to mulch, it will keep the weeds down so you dont have to weed as often. BTW if you plant any melons make sure you plant them way away from your veggies cause they will take over your garden and choke out anything in their way.

I've read about the melons and they'll for sure have their own area to thrive in. Far away from veggies so this shouldn't be an issue at all. thank you for the information on the tiller. my back, thanks YOU lol. there is tons and tons of information available on maize and im more then sure it'll be the most fun this year:amazed: thanks for the word miss hipp.


Mrs. Hippie 3 is right that corn must be planted in rows or blocks rather. Like 8 feetx 8 feet blocks of all the same species (if you want the same corn next year). Corn is pollinated through the wind that why you need a block of some size to make sure everything gets pollinated.
Most corn only produces one to two cobs per stalk and since the block will be planted all at the same time you will end up with all the corn ripe at the same time, this should also be planned for.

If you planned on growing different varieties and wanted to keep them from cross pollinating than you will have to grow the blocks several feet apart (10 -20 I think?).

Corn is also a heavy feeder of nitrogen so to have good results you will most likely need to suppliment the soil with something. Most large operations (in which whole fields are grown) work on 4 year cycles of clover, legumes, fallow etc. (nitrogen fixing plants) for 3 years followed by a crop of corn the 4th year then repeat. same principle can be applied to garden in that garden crops are rotated yearly in a manner that has nitrogen fixing plants seeded in previously nitrogen feeding spaces the year previous.

the plants you listed are mostly all annuals and require the most work, since you have to seed and tend them year after year. If you know your going to be in the place for a while then perennials are very rewarding since they come back every year if maintained properly. You'll be looking at 2-3 years before you get asparagus that looks like that from the store.

There are lots of tricks you will pick up on your gardening journey and some nice reference material (that is organic) is looking into permaculture. Look into Bill Mollison he's the father of the movement and has some interesting books and there's tons on youtube.

good luck and keep us posted.


:bow: Thanks for the information, it will be noted. especially the part about perennials. I really wasn't in that mode of thought about the situation. But the annuals, if you have the right variety, are just so loaded with juciy vitamin goodness i crave. haha i guess thats why i've leaned more toward them. also i'm aware of the nutrient situation. I have a question for you, i've looked in tons of places but no site or book talks about chemical nutes, to provide nitrogen. Only organics. Is this because the chemicals are just not right for the plant, or is it just because organics comes out with a totally better product?

one more thing, there will be one species of corn planted this year. thats it. I really feel i need to get the swing of things before i try any more varieties. lots of work to do!

look into vermiculture
a worm farm is a great thing
http://mycotopia.net...cheap-easy.html
and like dfar said
look into permaculture and books by bill mollison


i have a pdf of mollison's permaculture handbook
if someone could pm me how to post it i'll do so


I know ive heard of worm farming! I'm planning on trying it myself with redworms:eusa_clap

ahhh..so many peppers, just..so many peppers. They have to be my favorite thing in the world. ill eat JalapeƱo's by the handfuls!

#27 DrunkinMaster

DrunkinMaster

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 441 posts

Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:20 PM

Bump for my friend Drunkinmaster :bow:
Great thread and info :thumbup:

:greenboun haha thx man. i'm falling in love with the hobby already.

#28 dfar

dfar

    scared shitless

  • Free Member
  • 645 posts

Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:47 PM

I have a question for you, i've looked in tons of places but no site or book talks about chemical nutes, to provide nitrogen. Only organics. Is this because the chemicals are just not right for the plant, or is it just because organics comes out with a totally better product?


Chemical fertilizers work perfectly well with all garden plants (if used as per their instructions). In most cases synthetic fertilizers out produce organic ones and are less time strenuous (you go and buy a small bag and distribute it in your soil/water etc.).
The main problem that people have with synthetic fertilizers is there unsustainable and negative impact on nature (since nitrogen fertilizers rely heavily on fossil fuels and potassium and phosphorus from mining).

A lot of people grow gardens and there own food out of the view that they love nature and wish to tread a little lighter on the earth. In their opinion using synthetic fertilizers is counterproductive to this end and hence the large movement of people using "organic" means to produce mediums that grow healthy plants.

Chemical fertilizers are associated with industrial farming operations wherein the success of the operation is defined by how much and how fast the produce can be grown. Whereas the typical gardener is more worried about nutritional value and healthiness of plants relative to yield.

one other aspect that should be said is that for the most part chemical fertilizers produce only short-terms gains/effects. They are like supplements and must be constantly reintroduced at regular scheduling or else there effects soon are lost. They provide minimal benefits towards soil health and do not foster symbiotic relations between plants/fungi/bacteria etc. Through working with organic methods one builds the health of the soil which thereby provides healthy plants, it does not just provide supplements for plant growth. Organic means aids in disease reduction because it supports more than just plant growth but also fungi, bacteria and other beneficial microorganisms incumbent on healthy plant growth. This process of building healthy soil however takes upwards of 6 years (depending on the soil you start out with) and is far more physically and materially strenuous. However as the old saying goes you don't get something for nothing. It is quite rewarding to take soil that wouldn't even grow grass and turn it into the most rich garden bed.

in summery:

Synthetic (commercial) fertilizers

Pros: less labour intensive for you, small/concentrated quantities, produces large healthy plants,

Cons: environmental impacts, does not build soil, expensive, needs constant supervision and renewal, can damage plants with over fertilization.

Organic fertilizers

Pros: builds soil quality/quantity, produces healthy plants, reduces/reuses/recycles wastes that would go to landfill, provides a higher satisfaction, extremely difficult to harm plants with excessive fertilization.

Cons: time intensive, labour intensive, can be costly if you don't have access to manure or transportation etc., needs yearly renewal.

So hope this helps a little, I know I probably forgot a lot of things and really whole books have been written on this subject but this may give you a start.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Fertilizer

#29 Beast

Beast

    That's Mr. Beast to you..

  • Expired Member
  • 3,930 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:34 PM

I thought this was about 'self sustainable farming'? Chemical nutrients have no place in such a conversation, other than to say they don't belong there.

There is absolutely nothing self sustainable about using chemical fertilizers.

I highly recommend the book One Straw Revolution by Masanobu Fukuoka. This book is considered a central and classic component of the natural farming/permaculture library.

What I found most impressive with One Straw Revolution was that the author was adamant about not using chemical fertilizers or machinery, yet out produced all conventional farms in his country at that time for output per acre.

( what follows is a bit of beastist propaganda: )
You don't need chemicals and machines. The industry that makes those things, which is a direct descendent of the WW2 corporate war machine, wants you to think that you need chemicals and machines to wage war on the earth in order to make it grow plants for you. What did John Deere make before he made farm tractors? Tanks and howitzers. What did Dow Chemical make before they perfected pure nitrogen fertilizers? mustard gas.
So you really think that the evil bad karma of those companies is something you want to carry over to the production of your food??
( end of propaganda message )


The idea behind permaculture/self sustainable agraculture/natural farming is that you don't have to do all that work. Tilling the soil is one activity in particular that should be done away with if you are wanting to actually do this over the long term.

Don't get me wrong, there's uses for tractors and chemicals, and that's for people who want those plants NOW because they need money and they will worry about next years crops when it gets here. Permaculture might not start up just as fast, but in the long run you'll have a more stable soil, healthier plants (which produce more), and less overall work to do.

Don't believe me? Read One Straw Revolution and see for yourself.

......

Wow, the glossary is bullying my thread and won't let me put any links on the "One Straw Revolution"s lol

http://www.onestrawrevolution.net/

http://www.amazon.co...g/dp/0878572201

Edited by Beast, 01 February 2011 - 12:40 PM.


#30 dfar

dfar

    scared shitless

  • Free Member
  • 645 posts

Posted 01 February 2011 - 08:56 PM

I agree whole-hardly with Beasts above statement regarding the unsustainable nature of chemical fertilizers. With my previous post I was merely trying to outline an unbiased contrast between both chemical and organic strategies for optimum plant growth since the original poster had asked the question.

regardless, along with beast's very nice recommendation of Fukucka's One straw revolution (of which there are some very nice you tube videos of the same concept done by english speaking north Americans) one may also be interested in P.A Yeoman's "Water for every farm" and related titles regarding efficient use of surface/rain water instead of relying on thousand year old subterranean water for irrigation.

P.A. Yeomans's keyline design http://en.wikipedia..../Keyline_design

The deeper you delve into permaculture the more there seems to be and the more fascinating it becomes.

Here's three people to investegate:

Sepp Holzer

mzRzJRiUylg

Geoff Lawton 5 part video

TMQ8eSm92xQ

Bill Mollison

lyJLENVyNQQ

Fukucka's seed balls

dWyduWsoy8o
  • Beast likes this

#31 GodofOldGodsWatching

GodofOldGodsWatching

    Jerry, your words DO glow

  • Expired Member
  • 154 posts

Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:33 PM

(Lots of awesome ambition)


Remember not to bog yourself down! There are lots of things to consider before you even begin an operation of this size, and before you payout lots of $$ to get things started you want to safeguard as much as you can against limited or total failure (and, unfortunately, thats a distinct possibility with any farming operation).

A basic checklist to help you out:

1) First and foremost, do you have the necessary land area to support your planned crops? You said you will soon have access to a large area of land, but always err on the side of having leftover space (at first) than overplanting. Also remember that different plants have vastly different space requirements for healthy growth.

2) Equally as important as #1... what kind of soil do you have in the area where you plan to cultivate your crops? Is it acidic or basic? Is nutrient deficient in regards to any essential macro or micro nutrients? Is there a hard pan? Is it clay, silt, sand, or (bless your heart if it is...) lioam?

3) What is the weather/climate like in your area? Taking this into account with #1 and #2, do all planned crops stand a reasonable chance of success?

4) After #1 and #2 -- do you have the equipment necessary for your operation? Can you obtain it?

5) VERY IMPORTANT -- do you have an accurate picture in your mind of the time and effort necessary to start a farming operation and maintain it from bare land? Do you have the capital to cover any losses or calamities (or are you, as many new farmers do, banking on a profit that, for many years at least, may never come?)?

and finally, most important of all, perhaps

6) Have you any prior experience? Gardening and farming can be very appealing on paper but the harsh reality and difficulty of successfully fostering crops to maturity often knocks people out early in the running.

DONT EXPECT MUCH. DONT EXPECT IT TO BE EASY. BUT LOVE YOUR PLANTS, LOVE YOUR LAND, AND LOVE WHAT THEY GIVE TO YOU IN RETURN.

... hope that wasnt too discouraging, but I just want you to be prepared! Feel free to throw any questions or concerns my way, and GOOD LUCK
  • mycowarrier likes this




Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!