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"Stenocereus Ritterocereus hystrix" similar alkoloid content to peyote


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#1 Dave_the_stoner

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 12:21 AM

I was reading around on mescaline containing cactus, and this one popped up. As I searched around I only found 2 sites selling the cuttings. I read on one website that it is native in to the west Indies, and it's alkoloid content is more similar to peyote than peruvian torch or san pedro cacti. Also it dosent seem to be illegal in the United States yet, so some folks may want to jump on this if it's not a load of crap.

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 12:39 AM

looks like Bridgessii, to my eye ...

hope im wrong :eusa_pray

#3 loochypooch

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 12:51 AM

Very interesting! It is a columnar cactus with a phenotype much like the Pedro (nearly all Trichocereus of the columnar stature are active). Please post more info if you have it. I only see a few ethnobotanical sites selling it described as follows:

"This is a truly unique cactus as it is the only species that is known from outside Southern America and Mexico to contain similar alkaloids to Lophophora williamsii and Trichocereus Peruvianus! Actually chemically it is extremely similar to Lophophora williamsii. This species is found in the West Indies and could be used in places where Peyote ceremonies can be legally conduced if Peyote was not available or as alternative more economical entheogen. It has indeed been analyzed via HPLC, GC/MS and TLC. All reports are conclusive and active in the desired alkaloids. Truly, a very special cactus."

I don't see any alk reports, reports of human consumption or anything out yet. This could also contain poisons for all I know. Who wants to be a guinea pig and order some and eat it? Perhaps they should send us some free samples to post trip reports!

If this cactus has a high alky content (i.e. >1%) and is safe then there could be some potential here. I'd be very interested to learn: 1) What is the growth rate?, 2) Are the alkaloid contents really similar to peyote (i.e. containing peyotine) or are thes sites simply implying that mescaline is present?, and 3) Is there a shamanic history behind this plant or is it newly discovered? I'm thinking it has no historical use, which makes it much like an RC (Research 'Cactus') heh.

Here is the link where I got the picture from: http://psychoactiveh...products_id=326

FYI the Stenocereus family of cacti includes the popular "Organ Pipe" cactus, which of course is not known to be active.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Stenocereus_hystrix2[1].jpg


#4 loochypooch

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 05:39 PM

I contacted all of the vendor web sites asking for more information but have received nothing thus far. Does anyone know more?

From Erowid's "Visionary Cactus Guide":

Lemaireocereus hystrix -
Native to the arid regions of Jamaica, Haiti, Puerto rico and Cuba. Can also be classified as Stenocereus hystrix.
Reported to contain unspecified alkaloids.


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Posted 25 April 2006 - 05:47 PM

hey thats not the pic i saw of it...???
loochy go do a google search for "Stenocereus hysterix syn."
and check out it's other names...cactus taxonomy is all over the place man,
these people reclassify and rename shit like its goin out of style...
you may find more/better info on a legit gardening site than you will on entheobotanical sites

#6 loochypooch

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 06:03 PM

I've been looking, but it seems this must've only been discovered like last year. Try a search in the newsgroups on google -- not a single entry etc.

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 06:18 PM

STENOCEREUS HYSTRIX (Haworth) Buxbaum
Tribe Cacteae -- subtribe Cereinae

Place of Origin The most arid areas of the islands of Cuba, Jamaica, Haiti and Puerto Rico.

Description The plant has a short, more or less distinct trunk often 12 in. (30 cm.) in diameter and up to 47 ft. (12 m.) high. Its 10 to 50 erect branches have a diameter of 2 3/4 to 4 in. (7 to 10 cm.). There are 9 to 12 ribs whose slight protuberances are separated by wedge-shaped incisions. White or grayish felted areoles are borne on the upper part of the protuberances but not at the apex. New growth is more or less glaucous and covered with bloom and bears larger, hairier areoles. There are about ten radial spines and one to three central spines. One of the latter is longer than the others, measuring about 1 1/2 in. (4 cm.). All the spines are gray with a brown tip. The flowers are 3 to 3 1/2 in. (8 to 9 cm.) long. They have an obconical tube, about 2 in. (5 cm.) long and 1 1/4 in. (3 cm.) across at the opening, which bears a few large reddish or clark green scales. The perianth segments are white, opening wide when the plant is in full flower and sometimes almost evaginated. The fruit is oval, scarlet, 2 to 2 1/4 in. (5 to 6 cm.) long, bearing tufts of deciduous spines. When ride it splits, exposing the dark red pulp.

Cultivation This seldom-cultivated species is pretty when young because of the color of its joints, but it does not tolerate cold and does not flower easily. Propagation is by cuttings.

This genus, established by Riccobono, includes species that once belonged to the genera Lemaireocereus (Britton and Rose) and Ritterocereus (Backeberg). These have been abolished but the plants may still be referred to by these synonyms.


found these 2 tidbits in under 4 minutes..
if i didnt have to run errands right now id look more for ya,
but google has plenty of info..heh

be well

#8 loochypooch

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 07:59 PM

Those aren't the tidbits I am interested in though heh. The taxonomy is not in question. I'm referring to any ethnobotanical and entheogenic use of the cactus. Plus I'm interested in the actual chemical makeup of it.

Its fairly obvious that it contains Mescaline, but what else? The vendors make it sound more like Peyote than San Pedro. What are they implying?

- Are the vendors implying that it contains Pellotine and the many other psychedelic alkaloids present in Peyote? I think there are like 60 interesting alkaloids in Peyote, which are not in Pedro.

- Or are the vendors referring to the fact that the Mescaline content may be closer to that of Peyote (~3%) than Pedro (~1%)?

- Maybe both of the above?
:dance:

But what alkies does it contain (perhaps poisonous?) that Peyote does not? And what have people that ingested it (if any) reported?

Those are my questions and at this point I'm thinking the answers may not be that easy to discover. If you can find that info then you are the Google master Cap heh. I spent two hours last night and found NADA. This may be a dead topic for a while until one of us buys the powder or new info is published.

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 10:08 PM

apparently taxonomy is in question but lets let that go by the wayside, for now..

found this before having to scoop supper-
-back now so ill continue to look for ya in a bit..

maybe its because i use google.co.uk or maybe its b/c
[b]the thread starter got the name wrong,
the proper taxonomic name is Stenocereus hystrix
try googling that youll have better results..

This is topic Stenocereus hystrix 2 in forum Cacti & Succulents at The Corroboree.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.shaman-au...ic;f=6;t=000850
Posted by trout (Member # 1312) on :

Apologies for taking so long to get back to this. Adequate hours in a day is something I lack presently.

The folks at EG said the plant grows at other spots on the island but only one localized population is active (which is apparently at least part of why they think it may be a hybrid)

From what meager descriptions I can access it matches but I need to obtain a meaningful description for hystrix/fimbriatus to comment further.

Two arrived but one was toast and dripping rot (I only paid for one so not a problem- my guess is it happened during the weeks the box sat in storage at the USDA/APHIS inspection station)

http://www.shaman-au...S_hystrix_T.jpg

http://www.shaman-au...S_hystrix_C.jpg
Posted by Evil Genius (Member # 1553) on :

Hi,
indeed a very beautiful Plant! Thanks for posting the pics! I´m glad to hear some news from you again. Best Regards
Posted by Archaea (Member # 1430) on :

The lack of cactus descriptions and ideal taxonomic information strikes again.

No offense sir, but you are considered somewhat of an authority in this regard, and when you ask for/seek more information that can be a little disheartening to say the least.

I like the picture, and some investigation seems to imply that it is possible for an individual population to have unique chemical traits (P paradoxa as you know) without being a hybrid.

However assuming for a moment it is a hybrid, would that suggest that the other parent contains mescaline? Or that the genes for mescaline were/are dominant in some regard? Or could the occurrence of mescaline be due to a combination of two genetic sets for enzymes that only make the alkaloid with their combined pathway? Or might this be due to horizontal transmission.

[ 02. July 2005, 19:21: Message edited by: Archaea ]
Posted by Rev (Member # 23) on :

what we need is seed from this population
then we can find out if its a true population
or just a patch of a single hybrid clone
Posted by Flip (Member # 875) on :

Seems to me that it's likely to be a hybred thats escaped and cloned itself around
being that the rest of the population doesn't show any known activity.

It's a post spanish colony... seems reasonable that someone
brought a active mainland cacti in that flowered.
Posted by trout (Member # 1312) on :

Maybe its a hybrid but one would expect to see *some* features from the other parent in it.
So far as I can determine it matches the description for hystrix quite well.
Flowers will readily tell if its true or not.
Posted by dg420 (Member # 1581) on :

hello,
recieved a 50g sample of this species recently.
chemical assay= .4% alk. pretty weak, not the strong sample as suggested.... maybe it was the wrong sample? or a weak parent? the vendor claims its active at 10 grams, but not this sample....
thanks every-one for the great reading, it'll take me weeks to read all the info!
peace
dg
Posted by trout (Member # 1312) on :

0.4 is 400 mg per 100 grams dry. Pretty typical for lots of peruvianus and pachanois.
What was the composition? Did it contain mescaline?
Would you be willing to run the same test on the material that was received from Ethnogarden as a live cutting?
It presently looks like the surviving cutting will probably not recover from the methyl bromiding in customs.
Posted by dg420 (Member # 1581) on :

smell and taste say yes......
Posted by trout (Member # 1312) on :

There is much about this that begs for questioning.
A couple:
1) WHY would it be suspected as a hybrid? Was this based on something that was not stated? The plant looks like hystrix should.
2) Why was it eaten in the first place? Most people with any survival instinct will not eat an unknwon cactus without some good reason.
Posted by brian (Member # 335) on :

you say surviaval Trout - Here on Curacao the country people make a cactus dish from Stenocerues Griseus!
Posted by trout (Member # 1312) on :

People do eat all sorts of plants.
My bet is whoever was the first person to try Stenocereus griseus was either quite hungry or started with small amounts to be sure it was not a problem. Or both. How does the dish taste?
Some cactus that get consumed leave me scratching my head. For instance has anyone ever sampled Pereskia grandiflora fruit? I've been told these are eaten and also cooked with yet all I have tried were very bitter and soapy tasting.
Posted by dg420 (Member # 1581) on :

fyi
extract of stenocereus hystrix active at 200mg
Posted by Archaea (Member # 1430) on :

Wow, what is the growth rate of this plant in container cultivation?
Posted by Pisgah (Member # 1284) on :

Not sure, but I'm having a hell of a time getting mine to root!
Posted by trout (Member # 1312) on :

Mine started rooting but has some sort of orange discoloration starting that does not bode well.
Posted by trout (Member # 1312) on :

I'd suggest removing it from soil if not rooted.
Wait until you see root buds visibly starting before you gently replant it.
Posted by Evil Genius (Member # 1553) on :

I have this orange discolorations on a lot of cuttings, but i heard that this isn´t harmful for the plant and seems to be a kind of normal metabolism(?) product. But i might be wrong.

[ 30. July 2005, 17:11: Message edited by: Evil Genius ]
Posted by Archaea (Member # 1430) on :

I see orange stuff on the outside of cuts that look bad but does not hurt them.

And then there is a systemic infection that seems to relate to peat based soils used for long periods of time, this turns plants to mush in my experience.
Posted by Evil Genius (Member # 1553) on :

Hi Archaea,

i´m not sure if i encountered the systematic infection you mentioned before.
In the beginning of my breedings i had some kind of orange fungal infection on some of my Lophophoras, which was very infectious. I had to destroy all infected plants including the soil. Could that have been the infection you meant? Best Regards EG

[ 30. July 2005, 21:07: Message edited by: Evil Genius ]
Posted by trout (Member # 1312) on :

My guess is we are talking about different things.

A reddish or orange can form on cut surfaces and sometimes on the outer surface of plants. This does not appear to really hurt anything but plants showing it on cut surfaces do seem to develop a bit more rotting problems later than those that do not exhibit it.
This is a surface phenomenon.
If it is more orange or brownish than reddish and looks translucent or is deeper like a bruise on a cut surface this usually means that trouble is starting.
Some cactus always turn red when cut. That is a metabolic product oxidizing.

The orange color I am seeing is the formerly green portion of the flesh under the skin. That is rarely a good thing.

That orange on Lophos is probably treatable with savlon liquid or betadine. You probably would not want to eat those plants of course.
If it shows back up on any more uproot the plants and let them dry out as soon as you notice it. IF caught early that alone will take care of it sometimes. Otherwise try the antiseptic mentioned above.
Do you avoid the presence of peat in your soil mix? Is your soil mix slightly basic with gypsum, limestone or other calcium minerals?
If the answer to either is no, altering your soil would make your lophos happier.
Posted by Evil Genius (Member # 1553) on :

Hi,
ok that sounds really bad to me then.

Thanks for your tips!
Due to the problems i had with this orange rot, i only use hydropics now like seramis including some few additons like calcium or gypsum. I do not mix any peat into the soil. Fortunately i had no problems since then with this kind of fungal rot. I avoid using any chemicals. That means that slight problems which easily could be chemicalized, can turn out to be pretty bad to me in the end, if i not react quick enough. Because of this, i threw them out allready. I only use hydrogen peroxide as i think that´s not problematical.
Posted by Pisgah (Member # 1284) on :

originally by trout,

quote: I'd suggest removing it from soil if not rooted.
Wait until you see root buds visibly starting before you gently replant it.

Do I keep this in the dark? What is the mechanism here?
Posted by gusto (Member # 1305) on :

I've always rooted my cuttings in plenty of sun, just make sure that it stays vertical. Always tend to root at the lowest point IME ( though I've never tried one upside down).

My hystrix from EG has just been potted. Took about 3 weeks to show root formation.

#10 loochypooch

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 11:39 AM

Good info CAP!

Interestingly enough they do question the taxonomy, hah! That link doesn't work for me and I have been unable to find ANY such information -- and yes, I searched by several different names.

From the information you found it sounds like this plant is not a substantial asset because:
1) Problems with rooting and rot, and perhaps slow growth?
2) Low Alkaloid content (.4%)
3) No human record of consumption
Etc. Etc.

Does not sound like a Peyote substitute to me! Sounds like something that might be expensive, make you sick, and be a pain to grow.

#11 Dave_the_stoner

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Posted 28 April 2006 - 05:07 AM

Prone to disease and a low alkoloid content, seems to be sucking so far. I'm gonna keep my eyes open to see if any more information about this cactus popps up.
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#12 Sunstar

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 09:25 PM

I was curious. So after finding out I agree with Dave. Definitly not worth it.




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