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coir vs. verm casing **DRAMATIC PIX**


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#1 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 09:53 PM

A friend in Amsterdam sent this to me. I thought you might enjoy it...

Strain: B+ (isolate, same as the invitro bag grow)
Inoculation source: liquid culture
Substrate: popcorn spawned to coir/castings/poly
Spawn bag: medium pre-sealable w/ filter patch (from sporeworks.com)
Coir: General Hydroponics CocoTek
Hydration source: EarthJuice tea + GH Chi
Incubation: 16 days @ 83F (+/- 1F)
Time from casing to first pin: 6 days

Four cups of popcorn (per bag) were hydrated with EarthJuice by simmering in a double boiler for 1 hour and 40 minutes. Popcorn at full hydration can be easily sliced with a fingernail. Less than %3 of kernels had split at completion. The hydrated popcorn was dumped into a colander and stirred in front of a fan until mostly cool (about 15 minutes).

Four cups of bulk substrate (per bag) were prepared. Substrate composition was (by hydrated weight): %40 coir, %40 worm castings and %20 polyacrylamide. The coir and castings were hydrated to field capacity with EarthJuice in separate containers. The polyacrylamide was left a little dry (not fully hydrated). After hydration, components were weighed and mixed to the stated percentages.

The EarthJuice tea was a mix of Grow, Catalyst, Microblast (per the “hydroponics fertilizer” recipe on the label). Added to this was %.5 worm castings and %10 General Hydroponics Chi (by volume). The tea was “brewed” for 72 hours at 68F-72F under constant aeration (using an air stone and aquarium pump). Tea not used immediately was canned in quart jars and sterilized @ 15psi for 1 hour (for later use). EarthJuice tea spoils quickly – use it or loose it (or can it!).

The bulk substrate was poured into the bottom of an autoclavable spawn bag and packed *LOOSELY* into the bag’s expanded bottom. The popcorn was then poured on top of the substrate. These layers were NOT mixed. The spawn bag was triple Impulse sealed while still containing a good volume of “dead air” space (approximately as much air by volume as popcorn/substrate). The bags were PCed @ 15psi for 1.5 hours and cooled (in the PC) overnight.

The bags looked like this after the PC run:

substrate bag.jpg
(as always, click any pic to enlarge)

More substrate could (perhaps should) have been used. This was very quick, though…

Each bag was inoculated with 40mL of B+ liquid culture. Inoculation took place in a “mondo ghetto” laminar flow work station. The inoculation hole was covered first with electrical tape and then duct tape. Bags were incubated @ 83F for approximately 6 days until the popcorn layer was fully colonized. The bags were then kneaded thoroughly to mix the popcorn and bulk substrate, after which they were again *LOOSELY* packed and incubated for another 10 days until the substrate was fully colonized. The spawn bags were not opened at all during this process.

After approximately 16 days, the “bulk nugget” looked like this:

crazy rhizos.jpg

This isolate displays some crazy rhizomorphs. Almost like little trees.

The bulk nuggets were cased with pure coir and pure vermiculite in two different ways. One was covered on top with coir and surrounded with verm. The other was split, 50/50 with coir and verm. The coir and verm were hydrated to field capacity with tap water. After casing, the nuggets were placed in the fruiting environment. Pins showed up six days later. These pics are day seven. Please pardon the stoned photographer for letting the lens get foggy!



This is the “pre-harvest” pic of the 50/50 nugget:

coir on side, harvest.jpg

Pre-harvest pics of the other nugget sucked, so they weren't included.

This isolate certainly seems to prefer coir over vermiculite as a casing layer. The casings were done like this to see which would work better, but the differences were not expected to be this dramatic. It's kind of weird, actually. FOAF suspects it has a lot to do with this particular isolate.

It is ver interesting that this isolate produced mostly uniform (smaller) fruits invitro while producing mostly boomers cased. This is such a cool hobby...

A major road trip has come up, so this will be the last photo update for a week or so...hopefully, these nuggets won't have cobweb beards upon return like FOAF came home to after the last unexpected road trip!

Attached Thumbnails

  • coir on side, far away pins 3.jpg
  • coir on side, far away pins 2.jpg
  • coir on side, top pins.jpg
  • coir on side, far away pins 1.jpg
  • coir on side.jpg
  • coir on top pinning.jpg

Edited by BuckarooBanzai, 08 September 2009 - 06:39 PM.


#2 doobydoobydoo

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 11:40 PM

This isolate certainly seems to prefer coir over vermiculite as a casing layer. The casings were done like this to see which would work better, but the differences were not expected to be this dramatic. It's kind of weird, actually. FOAF suspects it has a lot to do with this particular isolate.


Yes sir! I was thinking just that! This is quite a distinct difference between your two casing approaches...


[missing pics]


Any other info on misting/wetting/the terrarium? Open air?

Edited by Sidestreet, 02 October 2016 - 03:54 PM.
removed missing pic links


#3 hogwild

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 11:45 PM

very interesting, id also like to know what kind of care was taken, such as the terrarium or misting. Awesome experiment

#4 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 08:09 AM

Tub/terrarium design:
[bad link]

Pretty standard stuff. Perlite for humidification with a 12V computer fan running at 6V 15 out of every 45 minutes to stir the air. Fresh air provided by a large capacity aquarium air pump (Won Brothers Dolphin 5). Bleach in the perl water to keep everything minty fresh (but not mediciney). No manual fanning at all, just the computer fan and air pump.

Verm and coir were wetted before casing to field capacity - a fistfull squeezed hard resulted in 4 or 5 water droplets. The nugget was checked once a day and given a light misting if the coir seemed to be drying (getting noticbly lighter in color). Coir and verm were misted equally, when misting was required (it wasn't required every day). Maybe 2 out of 5 days.

I just HATE verm. I love eating mushies (I even somewhat enjoy the taste of cubies) and that grit in my mouth just spoils it. I've been trying to find a way to get away from verm since my first sandy mouthful! Thats why all the focus on coir and poly. The hope was that the pure verm wouldn't completely out perform the coir. FOAF will take a %20 loss in harvest to avoid the verm. These results were completely unexpected.

Many more experiments are needed. These results are just too drastic to be taken completely seriously. Again, FOAF strongly believes this is something specific to/characteristic of this particular isolate. The verm side only produced 3 pins and 2 of them aborted. If it was really that bad, people wouldn't swear by it...

The other nugget did basically the same thing. Nice pinset on the top, where the coir was and virtually nothing from around the sides where the verm was. FOAF even used a different grade of verm for that one...

Weird stuff. This is a freakin' fun hobby.


Edited by Sidestreet, 02 October 2016 - 03:55 PM.
removed bad link


#5 Guest_cap_*

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 09:04 AM

its even more fun to watch you do all the dirty work :lol: :p

ive been wonderin about usin the Chi as well,
not to keen on buyin any for this purpose tho,
as it'd simply be a waste seeing how we don't foliar feed our indoor plants and rarely outdoors; aside from that, after readin this article --
>>> [bad link] *
i wrote-off the theory of it having any beneficial effects.
yer results make it quite clear though that chitin warrants more investigation

awesome results, as always brother
love the cracked caps :) wonder if it's detrimental in any way ??
out of curiousity, whats yer cropping humidity ?



*
dunno if you saw the article when i posted it here, but it goes into detail on trichoderma-
definitely worth checking out
Trich's chitinasis is the reason its so commonly found and feared in the mushroom industry
:dead:

BUCKAROO this is fantastic work and a great write up, thx for sharin with us


Edited by Sidestreet, 02 October 2016 - 03:55 PM.
removed bad link


#6 SharkieJones

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 09:21 AM

Nice pics. The shrooms from above look like they might be too dry.

#7 Guest_dial8_*

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 09:41 AM

Very nice write up, buckaroo! Very informative. :bow: What was the humidity? I dig those cracked caps.

#8 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 11:06 AM

The crackly caps are induced Hua-Gu. Check it:

https://mycotopia.ne...on-for-cubiues/

Basically, the cases get a major blast of warm, dry air about 16-20 hours into pin development (5 minutes with a hair dryer on warm/low). This happens when the pins are around 3/4 inch tall. Makes for denser mature fruits that dry quicker and taste a little better. Previous reports of potency variance have proven to be totaly placebo. Tell somebody who is familiar with what they look like that they are "special," though, and watch that placebo blast 'em into the stratosphere!

Other than the computer fan and hair dryer, humidity in the terrarium is pretty standard stuff. %80-%90 continuously ('cept when my FOAF is peeking) maintained with perlite and an aquarium heater. Terrarium temps are 75F-78F. 12 on/12 off for the lighting (floro strip).

As to the chitin...hey, FOAF is just trying to make certain his little buddies have an excess of anything/everything they need to grow up strong and healthy! Can't say it had a huge impact, but FOAF does LOVE to tweak variables...


Edited by Sidestreet, 02 October 2016 - 03:56 PM.
fixed link


#9 Guest_dial8_*

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 11:08 AM

Hua-Gu caps are much saught after in shittake cultivation.

#10 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 11:17 AM

FOAF has no experience with Shitakes, but the phenomena is ridiculously easy to cause in psillys. FOAF just loves watching it happen. Each cap is like a snowflake - no two the same and some are absolutely beautiful...

#11 Guest_cap_*

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 11:37 AM

:amazed:

goin SWIMming in cased mycrobags, soon. will be trying this no doubt

:bow: great info

#12 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 07:08 PM

2nd flush, coir vs/ verm. Yes, by the way, FOAF knows his casings are dry and he let these go way too long (roadtrip):
coir v. verm 2nd flush.jpg


This is a second bluk nugget cased with pure coir:
invitro 2nd flush.jpg

The second bluk nugget was already fruited once invitro:
[bad link]

This isolate seem so to prefer coir over verm so much that these results should probably be disrguarded (or at least look at with a grain of salt).


Edited by Sidestreet, 02 October 2016 - 03:56 PM.
removed bad link


#13 Hippie3

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 08:06 PM

i'm not so sure.
really your results are fairly much what i would expect
but no one has ever put it quite so dramatically before.
but we all know that cubies like coir more than verm,
and a blend of both seems best for casings to avoid overlay
yet still get good pinning action.
good work.
archive material in fact.
:bow:

#14 AimlessWanderer

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 11:03 AM

hmm another exp. another rthing learned....

grand pappy always told me the day i stop learnin -gulp gulp- start drinkin! .... lol i dont know, but im not drinking yet!

good work, "newb"

#15 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 01:34 PM

I just don't know. I mean, FOAF expected some difference (that's why he ran the experiment). But this is just silly. Two good flushes and not a single pin has developed on the straight verm side. Not one! A single side shroom seemed to be coming from the verm, but upon harvest, it was discovered that the 'shroom started on the coir side and grew about an inch under the verm before popping up.

Next up is going to be coir vs. a coir/verm mix.

#16 Guest_lost_onabbey_rd_*

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 03:46 PM

i don't wanna dampen the mood..
but could it be possible that since the coir side pined first that the side with the verm just never had a chance to develope..
i mean if the coir side pined first then the one big block might have just throw all it's energy into those pins instead of even trying to fruit from the verm side..
i think a more evenly weighted experiment would be to have seperate peices of substrait for both sides to fruit from that way their networks are operating independently instead of as one big mass
though i do have to say.. those results are quite impressive
LOST

#17 Hippie3

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 03:52 PM

if the coir side pined first then the one big block might have just throw all it's energy into those pins


that's not how cubensis colonies work,
if it were
then all cakes and casings would
only fruit in one area,
wherever it started first would draw the energy.
but no,
they fruit all over
if properly cared for.
so i don't see that
as a factor.

in terms of experiments,
yeah, needs to be duplicated
as something more sinister might be responsible,
perhaps the verm was oversaturated, infected, etc.
still
the results conform to what we see with coir in general,
and why coir casings overlay,
because cubies love coir.
conversely i've seen many verm casings
and the cubies seem oblivious to the verm.

so
if the results fit the expectations,
then i am not inclined to be overly skeptical
absent some evidence of a defect in procedure.

#18 Lazlo

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 06:20 PM

Don't forget that cubensis mycelium will rip through a coir casing layer much faster than a vermiculite casing layer. The vermiculite layer would set similar if allowed to go longer and was maintained well.

#19 Hippie3

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 07:52 AM

the relative speed is a consideration, true
but then again
being faster is still a relevant 'benefit'
that coir has over verm.

#20 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 10:29 AM

the relative speed is a consideration, true
but then again
being faster is still a relevant 'benefit'
that coir has over verm.


And let us not forget that this is the second flush that turned out this way. Even if speed of casing colonization were the primary consideration, it seems that by flush 2, the verm should have caught up with the coir. Flush 3 (which we are still waiting on), shouldn't be too drastically effected by myc speed colonizing the casing layer. FOAF predicts, however, that flush 3 will turn out pretty much exactly the same as flushes 1 & 2.

Misting was identical for both sides and water retention in the coir/verm was tested every day to make certain neither side was getting too wet (or too dry).

Perhaps a good variation on the experiment would be cleaning the nugget (post flush) and swapping the sides for verm and coir, to see if pinning/fruiting also changed sides.

I don't think two nuggets cased differently would be as good of an experiment. If the nug has only verm to work with, it would pin under the verm. The point here was to see what the nug would do when given the option of verm or coir.

Any suggestions as to new experiments to explore this phenomenon are absolutely welcome. Anybody willing to do any similar experimentation would also be welcome. FOAF would very much like to see these results verified (or vilified) by a third party with good mycology skills.




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