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coir vs. verm casing **DRAMATIC PIX**


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#21 Hippie3

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 06:20 AM

Even if speed of casing colonization were the primary consideration, it seems that by flush 2, the verm should have caught up with the coir.


indeed, good point.

a good variation on the experiment would be cleaning the nugget (post flush) and swapping the sides for verm and coir, to see if pinning/fruiting also changed sides.


now THAT would be awesome
and pretty much irrefutable

#22 Guest_dial8_*

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 08:22 AM

I agree. The next step is to clean and recase the sides in opposite casing material.
The results buckaroo has gotten are pretty damn dramatic in themselves but his suggestion above would definitely put most questions to rest.

a good variation on the experiment would be cleaning the nugget (post flush) and swapping the sides for verm and coir, to see if pinning/fruiting also changed sides.



#23 Lazlo

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 11:48 AM

If you really wanted to make sure the experiment was fair for both materials, why don't you lie a piece of wax paper over the newly cased substrate. This will give you a good micro-climate to work with for cubensis fruiting. This way misting, fanning, exc. isn't a factor as much and will improve the total yield as well, no matter which one is superior.;)

#24 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 10:23 PM

The tub is fully automated with a high end aquarium pump. No fanning, but FOAF does mist, usually once every other day.

FOAF has never tried the wax paper method...maybe something to consider, though. Thanks for the suggestion!

#25 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 08:26 PM

The bulk nugget has been cleaned, dunked (24hrs), and re-cased "opposite." If FOAF gets a third flush, it should show something interesting. If not, well, he's got more of these happy fun time bulk nugs working...

#26 Hippie3

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 08:37 PM

it will be interesting to see if it can actually switch gears like that,
i suspect perhaps not
as the pins for next flush were likely already beginning to
form on a microscopic level
before you 'moved the casing'.
so many may still pop up where the coir was,
and few where the verm was.
a reversal of expectations,
but not really since we recognize the possibility.
still
if it does actually manage a reversal
that would be astounding.
did you scrape the nug clean roughly enough to
destroy any micro-pinning ?

#27 Lazlo

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 09:22 PM

The wax paper will give you a a heavy CO2 rich micro-climate that will promote rhizomorphic growth throughout the entire casing layer. Both sides. This will show you that both materials will fruit nearly identical. Rhizomorphs crawling to the top of the casing layer being introduced to pinning triggers such as light and fresh air will form primordia and then on to pins. I'd bet my bottom dollar if you lie wax paper on the cased substrate from the time you case to the time primordia form, both sides will prove nearly identical in fruiting.

It's hard to compare a casing materials abilitly to fruit in this manner. The reason being; if one casing material such as coco coir has rhizomorphic growth reaching to the top of the casings layer and is switched into fruiting gear on one side and on the other side you have the vermiculite lagging behind being switched into fruitng gear in conditions not so optimal for fruiting, it's going to happen in this manner. It's the same with patching a casing layer for cubensis fruiting. If you allow rhizomorphs to pop up and switch into fruiting gear when there's spots on the casings layer that haven't began to show rhizomorphs, the spots that haven't colonized will fruit poorly if any versus the spots that have colonized that should've been patched over to allow the rest of the lagging rhizomorphs to catch up. The spots showing little rhizomorphic activity on the casings layer are indeed poor fruiters and never will catch up because of the switch in gears that happens from the early rhizomorphic activity on a casings layer.

Edit: I meant al. foil, not wax paper.

#28 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 09:29 PM

Dig. FOAF didn't scrub it really roughly, but he did scrape down to "fresh myc" with a nylon bristle brush. Pre-existing "micro pins" were a concern...that's one of the reasons he said "if FOAF gets a third flush." He was kind of concerned tha the "scrubbing" might throw things back by a week or so.

Scraping/cleaning was done pre-dunk, by the way. The hope was that it would be more effective that way.

Lazlo, dude, you should teach. That second paragraph says one hell of a lot with a very few words. I've gotta come back and re-read that after a little consideration. You've made me begin to question my FOAFs entire methodology. Me likey things that make him question his "assumptions"...

#29 Lazlo

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 09:47 PM

It's a fun experiment indeed. It's just hard to make a reasonable comparison with 2 completely different casing materials on one substrate for fruiting cubensis strains. You should try 2 identical substrates colonized with clones of the same strain with the 2 materials being tested. That would be a better comparison IMO.

Sorry for the major run on sentences.:pirate:

#30 Hippie3

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Posted 27 May 2006 - 05:58 AM

I'd bet my bottom dollar if you lie wax paper on the cased substrate from the time you case to the time primordia form, both sides will prove nearly identical in fruiting.


i'd take that bet.
pure verm is a shitty casing
and wax paper ain't gonna change that.
and i don't think it's just a minor matter
of a genetic difference either,
seen far too many other examples
showing similar results.

#31 Guest_dial8_*

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Posted 27 May 2006 - 11:42 AM

Good point. Second and even third flush pins will more than likely be formed.

as the pins for next flush were likely already beginning to
form



#32 Lazlo

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Posted 27 May 2006 - 01:08 PM

i'd take that bet.
pure verm is a shitty casing
and wax paper ain't gonna change that.
and i don't think it's just a minor matter
of a genetic difference either,
seen far too many other examples
showing similar results.


Ok. I've ordered some vermiculite. I'll show you there's not much difference in the 2 materials for casings, just timing. By the way, I meant foil not wax paper.

#33 Hippie3

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Posted 27 May 2006 - 01:10 PM

we'll see.

#34 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 27 May 2006 - 05:32 PM

Wait, foil? Like aluminum foil? If FOAF covers the casing with foil, isn't it going to screw with the pinning response by blocking light?

A bulk tray, not a nugget, is going to be cased later this evening. Maybe tomorrow. FOAF is looking for some input on considerations as how to best continue this coir vs. verm experiment.

His current consideration is to do two alternating casing material "stripes" on the bulk tray. Coir, then verm, then coir, then verm (the tray to be cased is about 14 inches long X 6 inches wide, so each stripe would be in the 2in wide range). The substrate/inoculant is the same as the nugget above, but this bag was shaped into a plastic tray after mixing the corn/bulk sub.

The thought is that if under two stripes, the same kind of results are demonstrated, it will be a further reinforcement of the evidence gathered above, without invalidating things via too much technique changes.

FOAF is wondering about other peoples opinions on the wax paper "lay over until pins form." It is an interesting idea that my FOAF hadn't even considered until Lazlo mentioned. It is also something he has read about before but never done before. The wax paper would seem to make humidity and CO2 retention more uniform across the casing layer. FOAF craves input when flying into previously unexplored territory like this. ANY thoughts are appreciated.

Two additional bulk nugget bags are currently being prepared. The current consideration with them is to take one and slice it in half with a knife (after fully colonized) and grow both sides out, in different containers, with one "half nug" cased in verm while the other is cased with coir. The second nugget bag will probably be done exactly like the one featured in this thread was, coir on half and verm on half, just to verify this experiment.

Neither of these nugs will be fruited invitro in the bags. No reason to prove that again as so many others have already done so. Those invitro fruits were just so damned ugly...

Initial hydration of the coir and verm is being watched even more closely this time around. A fistful squeezed tight that produces less than 4 or more than 6 drops of water will be adjusted accordingly.

Also, just for control's sake, the coir and verm casing materials from this point on are going to be PCed before use.

#35 Lazlo

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Posted 27 May 2006 - 06:11 PM

The foil blocks light and holds in moisture as well, allowing rhizomorphic growth to occur throughout the casing layer. Then once the growth surfaces evenly throughout the casing layer, it's removed allowing the rhizomorphs to switch gears for fruiting. Hyphal knotting on the rhizomorphs will occur and then on to primordia of course.

#36 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 27 May 2006 - 10:16 PM

Dig.

FOAF just put the casing material on and placed the nug straight in the fruiting environment, no prepinning stuff was done.

The coir runs so fast, it still colonized the bottom area enough to fruit inches away from the nug. It didn't peek through to the surface of the coir, though, in the tray bottom or on top of the nug.

During cleaning and switching of sides for coir/verm, it was suprising how thick the myc in the coir was. FOAF had to peel it off, especially right next to the nug. There was almost no growth into the verm. Mabe a half inch of weak myc that came off quite easily. It had been assumed that they myc would at least reach out into the verm to pick up the extra water.

The casing on top of the nug was the same. FOAF had to scrub to remove the coir but the verm just brushed right away.

#37 Hippie3

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 06:05 AM

covering damp verm for long
is a quick way to see some cobweb mold.

#38 Hippie3

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 08:22 AM

update ?

#39 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 09:00 AM

Only one pin has shown thus far, FOAF saw it last evening when putting the babies to bed for the night. Another 24 hours or so should show, hopefully, a couple more pins and something decisive.

#40 Hippie3

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 11:04 AM

the suspense is killing me.


how are yours coming along,
lazlo ?




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