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coir vs. verm casing **DRAMATIC PIX**


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#41 Lazlo

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:13 PM

I haven't even recieved my vermiculite order yet. My clone spawn is going to be another 3 weeks after the G2G too.

#42 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:22 PM

Click any pic to see an enlarged version. All pics are 640x480 to conserve bandwidth.

To start, a reminder as to where we are with this thread…

This is a bulk nugget (about six cups of stuff, total) made of popcorn/coir/castings/poly and a B+ isolate. The nug was cased half with coir and half with verm (both hydrated to field capacity). On the first two flushes, shrooms came up only on the coir side (as documented above).

The nugget was cleaned and lightly scrubbed with a soft nylon brush to remove/kill primordia. The nugget was then dunked in the fridge for 24 hours. After the dunk, the nugget was again cased half and half, except that the coir and verm sides were reversed (coir where verm used to be, verm where coir used to be). Both sides were misted, about once a day, as needed.

This is the first sign of growth (other than myc running in the coir) since returning the nugget to the terrarium. It is believed that it took so long to pin again (over a week) because of the scrubbing.


Yes, that is two pics of one single pin. That pin is all that has shown up so far, and fearless leader expressed anxiety, so I’m publishing FOAF’s results a tad earlier than might be done otherwise. Other pins MIGHT still show up on the verm side, but the first (and only so far) clearly preferred the coir side.

I don’t know if any other pins are going to show up (this IS a 3rd flush situation) and that one pin looks like it might abort. Other pics shall be published as the little guy grows up, if relevant (or requested).

FOAF is going to re-run this same experiment, only the scrub/swap will be done after the first flush instead of doing it after the second flush. Hopefully, the nug will still have more “umph” and the results will be more decisive than one single pin.

As an extension of this experiment, a bulk substrate tray has been cased like this:

coir v. verm 3 layer.jpg


That is verm, coir/verm and coir. Same B+ isolate as above, same bulk recipe, this nug was just shaped into a tray instead of a block.

These are some preliminary results from a Mycrotopia substrate using coir instead of verm:


More info on the coir based Mycro cakes to come in a later thread…

Here is a different bulk nug (the one first fruited invitro, in a spawn bag), spitting out a fourth flush after being cased with 100% coir. Not a very impressive pinset, but it hasn’t contaminated yet, which is something. Any landing you can walk away from, eh?

coir only nug 4th flush.jpg


Here are the next two nugs for this experiment. The corn layer should be done by tomorrow or the next day. Then the bags will be mixed up, lightly packed and dropped back in the incubator until they form nuggets.

IMG_0002.JPG


Both these nugs will probably be done with the same 50/50 coir/verm casing, but they will be "scrubbed and swapped" after the first flush (instead of the second). If both of these nugs do the same thing, this will seem a little more like a trend and a lot less like a coincidence.

FOAF is still looking at this as a coincidence/oddity at this point. The results are just too extreme, too much like what he was expecting. Also, ZERO other people have duplicated these results and that is the real acid test. All of this could easily be the result of some environmental variable that my FOAF hasn't considered.

I am NOT trying to scream coir is better than verm or anything like that, by the way. The pics are screaming it...I'm trying to tone it down and remind us all (myself included) that this could easily be a fluke.

I was really, *REALLY* surprised that the results were as dramatic as they were during flushes one and two. I was freakin’ AMAZED when that one pin showed up after the scrub/swap. Truthfully, I expected this nug to either do nothing or contam after the scrubbing - castings and plain corn got exposed. Also, after that mondo neglect tek week when my FOAF was out of town, this nug was DRY before it was dunked. The coir was bone dry when those way over mature second flush fruits were harvested.

If my FOAF was a “real” scientist, he wouldn’t publish anything like this until he had six or eight well documented double-blind experiments to back it up. You think a Mycotopiate type can/will flame you? Try publishing to a “peer reviewed” scientific journal. “Real scientists” can be absolutely merciless in verbally assaulting you. Careers can be made (or broken) by one single publication in a “real” science journal.

Of course, that’s the value of being an amateur scientist. I can run with things like this in any way that seems fit. The only person my FOAF has to justify results to is me. Hey, if it works for him, it works, ya know?

Although Mycotopia is a highly discerning audience, we aren’t peers - we don't even know each others' real names. If I piss away my personal reputation with unreproducable results, I can always change pseudonyms!!!

Stamets will *always* be Stamets and he has to publish carefully as a result!

There will always be certain significant advantages to "amateur" science and "amateur" scientific publishings like this one. One of those advantages is the reality that one crazy dude with a PC and a dream might "revolutionize" the industry with one simple idea.

Airport syringes and silicone injection ports come to mind.

But I'm not looking to wave my ass around and scream shit. PLEASE don’t read more into this than what it is: ONE set of results. If you want to play with coir, this MIGHT be of interest to you.

Then again, maybe not. These results could easily be the result of some environmental variable my FOAF hasn't taken into consideration.

One thing is certain: if any of you would be willing to run a small 50/50 casing experiment like this, it would be MOST appreciated!

Attached Thumbnails

  • coir cake peek 2.jpg
  • coir cake peek 1.jpg
  • coir v. verm 2.jpg
  • coir v. verm 1.jpg


#43 Hippie3

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 06:54 AM

eh, don't be so eager to run away from your results.
it is just one pin, and it does look likely to abort
BUT
it's on the coir side.
:cool:

#44 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 10:33 PM

I’m not trying to run away from results…I just don’t want anybody thinking I’m blasting some “coir rules all” clarion call. Just sharing some interesting pictures...

Well, enough BS and on to the good news: FOAF reports that the single pin didn’t abort, but rather gained about %400 in size over night!!!! FOAF was all but certain this pin would abort. Finding it healthy and much larger tonight was WAY cool!!!


No other pins have shown up to keep him company, but he looks like he’ll be a big’un, so that’s pretty cool!

Coir cake with 50/50 verm/coir casing:

un.jpg



Below are two cakes cased with coir and two cased 50/50 coir/verm. The coir only cakes (two on top) are way ahead of the 50/50s…

coir cakes.jpg


The 50/50 cakes have finally started to pin (2 days later than the coir only cakes):

coir cake with verm.jpg


All the cakes pictured above are a coir based Mycorotopia mix (no verm in the cakes).

The nuggets for the next round of experiments should be done within a week to ten days. Things are really anxious around the Yoyodyne labs! John Smallberries can barely contain himself with glee!

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_0002.JPG
  • t abort.jpg


#45 Hippie3

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 07:12 AM

:cool:

#46 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 11:18 PM

This is an attempt at recreating the results presented earlier in this thread. This second bulk nugget is identical in all respects to the first. As the large rectangular tupperware was in use, a circular container was used for this run. Fruiting conditions were identical.

This is the whole nugget pinning:
coir v. verm 1.jpg

This is the whole nugget right before harvest:
coir v. verm 2.jpg


This time, one pin showed up on the verm only side:
verm abort pin.jpg
This pin aborted and didn't get much bigger than shown.

One thing is very certain: this strain drastically prefers coir to verm as a casing material.

#47 AKA_MoeSkizac

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:10 AM

Very cool thread, and this last test was B+, correct?

#48 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 08:07 AM

B+ spores to liquid culture to popcorn to coir/castings. Next up for this experiment is going to be EQ.

#49 Hippie3

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 08:23 AM

awesome.
:bow:
archive material

#50 siam_jim

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:43 AM

real nice work and info there buck. thanks

siam

#51 radiosick

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 02:27 PM

so what about cior vs. jiffy mix. just bought a bunch of 50/50 but i'll go out and get some cior instead if it is that much better.

#52 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 03:04 PM

FOAF has no basis for comparison, having never used Jiffy mix. One thing he is completely convinced of, at this point: if the choice is pure verm or pure coir, pure coir is vastly superior as a casing.

Experiments continue...

#53 Lazlo

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 02:07 PM

Jiffy Mix is a peat moss based potting medium with a minimal amount of vermiculite or perlite mixed in. It works very well for casings.

#54 cloudtop

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 01:51 AM

Just throwing in my thanks for the information and experimentation thus far. I've just thrown down my first ever casing layers (previously having only done straight spawn to substrate without a casing layer in Sterlite tubs; 50/50 verm/spm with lime), so I'm finally starting to pay attention to the potential value added by casing layers. After this current run, I'll definitely be joining in the experiments with a run of tubs of verm, coir, spm, verm/coir, verm/spm, and coir/spm. Just need to get a pH scale to make sure the layers are coming out as neutral as possible.

Keep up the great work, BB & laz!

#55 don't know

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 10:37 AM

pure verm is a shitty casing

Check out Welcome at the new Fanaticus and
look at all of those old photos by the professor
on the museum pages. All cased with pure verm and
all looking spectacular.

If you do the PFTEK, pure verm is the only way to go.
Start a contest. Begin with the same spore syringe.
choose your method. Keep the conditions all the same.
Watch the PFTEK come in first with the first primordia.
With the PF classic, I would always get primordia by about
day 18 (invitro) - then birth and case with wet verm and watch
the shrooms beat all the others over the finish line with the
cakes ready to be recased with wet verm for another two fat
flushes.

The Professor

#56 Hippie3

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 10:41 AM

hi PF
nice to see you around

#57 Guest_DaGoon_*

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:15 PM

Id like to know if coir/peat/verm work better than just a coir/verm combo

And what about fine vermaculite

coir is awesome

#58 Cryingblackoil

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 07:10 AM

I was curious about your lighting? Could that account for some of the dramatic effect?

#59 Cryingblackoil

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 07:13 AM

Hmm, what about the light? Could that affecting the results?

#60 Hippie3

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 07:43 AM

no.
not unless one side was kept in total darkness and the other given light....




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