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Shamanism: "Old Time Religion"


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#1 Guest_tehuti_*

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 11:53 AM

"Shamanic ecstasy is the real "Old Time Religion," of which modern churches are but pallid evocations. Shamanic, visionary ecstasy, the mysterium tremendum, the unio mystica, the eternally delightful experience of the universe as energy, is a sine qua non of religion, it is what religion is for! There is no need for faith, it is the ecstatic experience itself that gives one faith in the intrinsic unity and integrity of the universe, in ourselves as integral parts of the whole; that reveals to us the sublime majesty of our universe, and the fluctuant, scintillant, alchemical miracle that is quotidian consciousness. Any religion that requires faith and gives none, that defends against religious experiences, that promulgates the bizarre superstition that humankind is in some way separate, divorced from the rest of creation, that heals not the gaping wound between Body and Soul, but would tear them asunder... is no religion at all!" Jonathan Ott

#2 morella

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 03:21 PM

It is possible to become spirited away without the aid of an "alchemical miracle".Posted Image

#3 Guest_underground_shaman_*

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 03:52 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

It is possible to become spirited away without the aid of an "alchemical miracle".<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I would posit that all mystical experience is mediated by chemicals in the brain.

These chemicals can be ingested, or one can use a variety of techniques (breathing, meditation, exercise, pain, music...) to elicit endogenous changes in the neurochemical mileau (brain soup).

Either way, transcendence is dependent upon the presence and activity of these brain substances; or rather, the changes in neurochemical mileau which accompany their presence.

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However, your implication in the above quote is a misreading of the Ott quote. It is not a "chemical miracle" that is being spoken of, but rather "alchemical": that is, the creation of something entirely new (consciousness or awareness of awareness) from the combination of existing factors acting upon the primate brain. (This is a very McKenna-esque argument.)

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#4 Guest_tehuti_*

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 04:08 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

However, your implication in the above quote is a misreading of the Ott quote. It is not a "chemical miracle" that is being spoken of, but rather "alchemical": that is, the creation of something entirely new (consciousness or awareness of awareness) from the combination of existing factors acting upon the primate brain. (This is a very McKenna-esque argument.) <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>


What are your personal opinions on this? This is very interesting..

#5 Guest_underground_shaman_*

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Posted 30 March 2004 - 10:48 AM

I could go on for days and days...

What is the nature of consciousness? Look into the eyes of your pets, and tell me they do not have "consciousness". operational definitions notwithstanding, I posit that all living creatures have some form of consciousness.

Homer: "what is mind? no matter. what is matter? nevermind. he he he."

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#6 Guest_redmonk_*

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Posted 30 March 2004 - 08:15 PM

I think conciousness may extend out into things we normally wouldn't consider . Plants , trees , fungi .....why stop there ? Rocks ,rivers, sky . Rupert Sheldrake has even postulated that the sun itself may possess conciousness ( and has some scientific data to back it up ! ) .
Anyhow , I love the Ott quote , Roo . What a coincidence : I just found that quote last week and put it on my desktop . Yeah , gimmee that REAL old time religion !

#7 thehemperor

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 10:24 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"Shamanic ecstasy is the real "Old Time Religion," of which modern churches are but pallid evocations. Shamanic, visionary ecstasy, the mysterium tremendum, the unio mystica, the eternally delightful experience of the universe as energy, is a sine qua non of religion, it is what religion is for! There is no need for faith, it is the ecstatic experience itself that gives one faith in the intrinsic unity and integrity of the universe, in ourselves as integral parts of the whole; that reveals to us the sublime majesty of our universe, and the fluctuant, scintillant, alchemical miracle that is quotidian consciousness. Any religion that requires faith and gives none, that defends against religious experiences, that promulgates the bizarre superstition that humankind is in some way separate, divorced from the rest of creation, that heals not the gaping wound between Body and Soul, but would tear them asunder... is no religion at all!" Jonathan Ott<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>



Ott's vocabulary makes me sick. Posted Image

One day we will be able to articulate our information this well.

www.pharmacratic-inquisition.com

#8 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 11 June 2004 - 07:29 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Look into the eyes of your pets, and tell me they do not have "consciousness".<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
speaking of which,
i hear that recent study by german scientists
concluded dogs can understand human language.
something i knew from experience, they know when i'm talking about them even when i don't say their names...

#9 Guest_perpetually_*

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Posted 13 June 2004 - 12:09 AM

well somebody likes using a WHOLE BUNCH of big words, and while i did understand it, i think i broke something in my head doing so.Posted Image.
as for my personal opinion, i feel most defenataly that every living being with a brain posesess some form of conscience, some just operate a much wider spectrum. as for plants and other growing matter without a brain, i feel that they are not conscience, meaning they don't know when somebody is talking to them, or know when a tree next to them is cut down, but i feel that they do have and aura of energy "soul", even though part of me thinks this is silly scientificaly speaking, i still like to beleive that they are part of the spirit world in which everything exist. just my 2 pennies anyways.
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#10 sleestak

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Posted 13 June 2004 - 12:13 AM

so that dog DOES know the recipe for Bush's baked beans!?!

#11 Guest_freaked_*

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Posted 19 June 2004 - 07:06 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

so that dog DOES know the recipe for Bush's baked beans!?!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

lol

#12 Guest_joe_*

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 07:35 AM

i dont know where i found this... but theyre good for a listen. got a couple of Ott things on there.

http://mckenna.psych...ic-library.org/



#13 Guest_tehuti_*

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 04:58 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

well somebody likes using a WHOLE BUNCH of big words, and while i did understand it, i think i broke something in my head doing so..
as for my personal opinion, i feel most defenataly that every living being with a brain posesess some form of conscience, some just operate a much wider spectrum. as for plants and other growing matter without a brain, i feel that they are not conscience, meaning they don't know when somebody is talking to them, or know when a tree next to them is cut down, but i feel that they do have and aura of energy "soul", even though part of me thinks this is silly scientificaly speaking, i still like to beleive that they are part of the spirit world in which everything exist. just my 2 pennies anyways.
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<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

These are just words, I do not let their size bother me because I am bigger than any "word" human language has ever produced.

"even though part of me thinks this is silly scientifically speaking, i still like to believe that they are part of the spirit world in which everything exist. just my 2 pennies anyway."

Where did you come from? Sciences says you came from DNA, which came from molecules, which are atoms made of smaller particles (protons, electrons, neutrons) that are made up of subatomic particles. What caused these things to come together and become "you"? Perhaps it is what lay beyond the subatomic.

I would suspect that subatomic particles do not have the intelligence to create atoms, nor do atoms have the ability to create anything. What is it that "creates", what is it that organizes things and made you and I from nothing?

Shamans call it "nature". I think our culture use of the word "nature" to describe the cosmos is wrong because it implies something separate from ourselves. It implies a state of chaos our egos need to mold and modify. I would consider such a thing to be creating chaos out of natural order.

I think this is what Ott is trying to say in so many words. Our true religion is something we need not create. I would even go so far as to say we do not need the entire concept of having a creator. Such a concept implies we are separate from the rest of creation, it implies that we are a finished work, it is a lie. We are a product of the universe, as is our soul. It is a much more wondrous concept than believing a "god" we created, created us.



#14 Guest_joe_*

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 12:46 AM

so called "science" is so limited. research results are so easily swayed to meet researchers desires. lets all stop feeling silly when we express ideas that happen to be hard to operationalize and prove in a lab. why is it that when something is hard to duplicate in study that it becomes decidedly myth?

oi.. nevermind i just ate to much of what i found growing on a moldy lump on my windowsil... but because i cant explain what i see.. i must not really be seeing it at all.

#15 Guest_perpetually_*

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 02:46 AM

well like me re-state what i was trying to say. i feel that every living thing, plants and animals have a soul. but i don't beleave that the soul remains after death, it too dies with the being. instead of in the christian sence that a humans soul carries on after our death. for one i think the idea of a "creator" is silly, i came from my parents, just like a baby elephant comes from his. i am an animal in every since of the word, we as humans are just more consciencly aware then other animals on this planet. if anything did create me it was nature, as my birth, life and death are all part of natures course, just like every other living thing on the tiny rock amongest the stars. what i was saying about the plants is that, while i feel they have a "soul" i feel it is not conscience of this world beyond it's growth cycle, a tree isn't going to curl it's leaves if i yell at it, what the conscience "soul" of my dog will probibly be hurt and run away if i yell at him for no reason. i guess i kinda veiw the soul as something's personality, while part of me feels that everything has a cognative personality, scientificaly i feel it is something plants can't posses. well i'm done rambeling for the night. lets hear some more input though, i find this stuff interesting.
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#16 Guest_tehuti_*

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 07:11 PM

If you consider the soul to be the personality you are right it dies with the being. I do not believe that any memories of this life survive death.

You came from your parents. You are correct. But where where you before that? You may say nothing or nowhere. I say that there is no such thing in the universe. You say that you will cease to exist when you die, but does anything else in the universe cease to exist when it dies? Things explode or rot but they do not cease to exist. They become other things and nothing is wasted.

Think about this. You and I, everyone and everything is one interconected "thing" called the cosmos or universe. I share the same being and existance as you, we are one being. Nothing is seperate, everything is one, there is no seperation. It is just that for a micro second in the history of the universe, you are experiancing existance as a single seperate entity. When your body wears out and dies where will you be? I would think the place you where before you came here.

Smoke some herb, roll this concept around in your mind a bit. Think about the life of stars. How the die and live again. How NOTHING in this universe is wasted, and how you are just another part of the universe as are stars, nebula, rocks etc. The same goes with energy. Energy does not die.. nor is it created.

I am just saying that you should not get into the trap of thinking of yourself seperated from the universe. You and it are the same thing, made of the same stuff. Its that very scary thing that happens when we eat tons of shrooms. The ego fades and we realize our percieved existance is nothing more than our egos. We either freak out in fear or we experiance the all and realize we are that all..

#17 Guest_joe_*

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 03:04 AM

the afterlife wasnt thought up by christ or christians, juda, islam or anyone/anything else. I think anyone who dreams can come up with the notion on their own.

as far as plants go you should read "the secret life of plants". it's quite possible that plants do respond to not only outside stimuli (which is obvious) but intent. its worth just thumbing through at the bookstore if you get a chance

I dont know how anyone can eat mushrooms in nature and not feel a true sort of communion with nature. when i walk past certain trees (tripping or not) i feel an absolute sense of being in them. if its real to me, if i witness it formyself should i believe its not real because i dont see everyone else stoping to talk to it? I'm always going to trust what i experience for myself over what other people tell me.

sorry to be so disjointed here, but as far as life after death. i have to say ive experienced far far far to much to just assume it doesnt exist because some people find it easier to think it doesnt. If i were to go on about my experiences here i'd just sound crazy.. but so called crazy things do happen.

an athiest friend of mine has seen very clear things as well but he refuses to aknowladge them simply because he believes in athieism. let me ask you this, would it make a difference if a creator or creators did exist? ofcourse not. "meaning" seekers would still be left without the meaning theyre looking for. why should there or should there not be gods? what difference would it make? whatever is simply is. what you see means exactly what you see and possibly a million other things. why? weather there's a god or not i dont think it could tell you.

forget everything i just said. honestly.. forget it all. All i mean here is, if you perchance come across a being of light, a being of pure light who gets you hip to the big galactic scene dont just scuff the experience off as a dream because "beings of light dont really exist".

the other night i was with four friends of completely different backgrounds and different college degrees. we saw a bloodred moon on the horizon. within minutes it was brighter and higher in the sky. i said "wow, look how fast the moon is rising" they all agreed that the moon couldnt possibly be rising. I kept mesuring its acsent with fingers held at arms lenth. it was three fingers off the water and they still knew for asurety that the moon wasnt rising. finally six fingers off the water they said "wow thats impossible"

I'm sure were all bright enough to know that the moon can absolutley be rising at any time of the day or night depending on the time of year. but because these friends of mine THOUGHT they were told the moon only sets late at night they denied what was right in front of them.

i hope i made some kind of point.. but its hotter than hell... if hell is humid. very very very humid.

#18 Guest_tehuti_*

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 06:10 AM

as far as plants go you should read "the secret life of plants". it's quite possible that plants do respond to not only outside stimuli (which is obvious) but intent. its worth just thumbing through at the bookstore if you get a chance

That is a very good book. I have a copy I bought years ago. Like I said before. "belief" itself can keep you from seeing what realy is. I do not believe I am one with the universe, but so far the facts seem to indicate it to be true. My mind is open to facts that prove or disprove this.If I had strong beliefs either way, I could blind myself. I donot have a personal stake in proving or disproving this theory. It goes this way with peoples beliefs regarding GOD. An athiest is just as much a true believer as a bible thumper. Both will ignore facts, both are blinded by belief.


#19 Guest_perpetually_*

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 01:07 PM

the way i look at it, before i was from my parents, i was an apple, or a piece of sesame chicken, a glass of milk, all these things were used to create me, from a few tiny cells i grew from these things, and after i die i will go back to the earth, part of me will probibly help a little cubie to grow and spread it's spores. hell part of me has already been that mushroom, and part of me has already been a million differnt things. when my life comes to an end, a million other lives will begin, and this is how i feel i am connected to the universe as a hole. the atoms in my fingernail could be from a far away galaxie billions of years ago. matter and energy is never created or distroyed, mearly transformed. as far as religion goes i guess i would be considered athiest, b/c i see no need for a god or gods. i do how ever wonder where all of this atomic matter came from, i mean can something really just exist? i mean i guess it is possible that it did all exist as one, big bang, and is slowly becoming more and more chaotic, but where did all of these electrons and neutrons come from, that is my only wonder.
joe that book sounds interesting, i might have to find a copy as i have no good reading material this summer. i was also looking into bonsi, as i love plants and i've always thought these things where cool.
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#20 Guest_tehuti_*

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 06:16 PM

Your cool man...

Just keep your mind open to ALL possibilities. Would you not consider an athiest to be just as closed minded as a bible thumper?




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