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Shamanism: "Old Time Religion"


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#21 Guest_perpetually_*

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Posted 24 June 2004 - 12:29 AM

yes i have known a few athiest that are that way seemingly just to rebel from their former religion growing up, but i feel that they are "athiest" for all the wrong reasons, they are what they are because of spite. But in all honesty i am really uncomfortable with the though that there is a god, or some other entity controlling my life other then me. i mean at times i do feel that there is some force out there that i can't exlpain, but i feel more like it's just there more so then controling anything. i know that i am a little sarcastic to the bible thumpers, i should be more open with them, but i kinda feel like that would be like letting a blind man guide me across the street.
the only thin i really get stuck on like i said is where did it all start? i mean can something really just exist, can there really be no start, and thus no end? doesn't everything have to start somewhere, sometime? any thoughs Roo? cool thread, i'm enjoying this.
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#22 Guest_joe_*

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Posted 26 June 2004 - 11:35 PM

well if god or gods existed it doesnt apear as though theyve ever had any control over what choices people make. if you're able to find happiness in anything.. let me quote tom robbins here... "you have found a way to be at home with the worlds confusion, a way to embrace the chaos rather than struggle to reduce it or become its victim" lets say thats you, or anyone for that matter. im talking about the people whove survived death camps without holding a grudge... well then i dont even think a god thrusting you to hell could make you unhappy. basically nobody can hurt you at all.. so yeah i dont see the purpose in gods either, unless ofcourse theyre just another kind of consciousness.. like us. except they have a different kind of roll. who cares. i like the old greek gods because they have personality. and in a christian sense they're imperfect. I like that. i say, why not have transdimensional beings as a possibility in your personal cosmology? i find allowing myself to be open to suprizes keeps me searching. i like searching. the french say something like "the best part of an affair is going up the stairs" i like being curious about whats behind closed doors. science leaves many doors of undersadning shut tight. lets open them up and be open to whats inside.... was that all i wanted to say? yeah.. i think so.

#23 draughtsman

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 06:48 PM

Roo is onto something. I've been reading alot of Ken Wilber's work lately (and others). Okay, we all know the creator-God idea is bogus. But the modern alternative, which is science insisting that this planet, this life, is all some kind of ho-hum random coincidence doesn't cut it, either.

I like this especially:
"I would suspect that subatomic particles do not have the intelligence to create atoms, nor do atoms have the ability to create anything. What is it that "creates", what is it that organizes things and made you and I from nothing?"

Bingo,
now our questions are getting interesting. I don't pretend to have an answer to that one. But something tells me we're on to something...

BTW, I'm just now getting back onto this board after a couple years off. Back then, (a friend of mine) had great success with PF Tek. Beginners luck I guess: nice yield, good trips. (This friend of mine) was alarmed to learn that Dr. Fanaticus had been busted, ouch. So good to find out that the Professor and his tek are alive and well...

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#24 Guest_purge_*

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 02:24 PM

**Disclaimer!! The following is not meant to bash, ridicule, or belittle anyones religious beliefs. The opinions expresed are very much the opinions of the poster, but are based on his experience and personal version of reality. Individual mileage may vary.**

I personally do believe in god, but not in any form recognized by organized religion. I believe, Jesus, Buddah, all the great religious teachers, presented us with truth, which was then promptly twisted and used by others to control the masses. I also believe that this is why people rebel against those religions. The energy that flows through us all, our soul(s) so to speak, knows the truth, and so we do also, in the deepest, most recessed parts of our minds, so we reject the lies.

Organized religion has a perfect defense mechanism built in, in that anyone who questions the beliefs of that religion lacks faith. This allows the followers of the church to supress the doubts they have under a blanket of blind devotion.

While I don't classify myself as any particular religion, I do believe there is truth to be found in religious texts. I believe there is a god, and I believe there is an (before)afterlife, and that we have souls, which are eternal. I personally believe that those souls are part of god, in fact that everything in the universe is made from the energy that is god.

I also believe that eternal punishment is a ludicrous idea, created by man to instill fear into the masses and make them follow the path set forth by religious leaders. If your finger fell asleep for a moment, and wouldn't respond as you wished, would you cut it off and throw it in a fire?

Our minds are not just organs that we need to function, but filters limiting our knowledge and sensory intake to what we need to know to survive in this reality. Cubies, cacti, and other psycoactive chemicals have the power to help people break through those barriers, if only momentarily, and know the truth. It truly can be a life changing experience.

If you read trip reports of people who have gone beyond ego death, in many of them you'll find a common thread of unity and one-ness, completion within the all.

#25 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 08:11 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

as for plants and other growing matter without a brain, i feel that they are not conscience, meaning they don't know when somebody is talking to them, or know when a tree next to them is cut down<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

i'm less certain,
i've had a tree blow me a hello kiss/breeze
and heard their pleas to save them
from the killers that come with chainsaws...

#26 Guest_jeklhyd_*

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 07:28 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

i've had a tree blow me a hello kiss/breeze <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I also saw you post once about being as small as a bug or something...and that you could tell the attitudes of plants and so forth.
I once heard the trees call my friend's name, and I thought some bushes were gesturing me to come and hide in them.
I'd like to hear more about these kinds of experiences if you'd care to share.

(Message edited by grosscaricature on July 26, 2004)

#27 Guest_soul_*

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 06:03 AM

everything living has a soul. everything is made of energy one inferior the other superior conscious souls eveything is made from the one so we are all one interconnected. the soul cannot die the body can it is made of the earth and so it returns. it an material by product i e your parents bodies made your body but not the soul
it cannot be created nor destroyed it is immortal traveling from body to body like a man that change clothes until the ultimate goal is attain which is reunion with the One ,Self, Supreme Soul which all creation came. where like a spark from a flame. a minute piece from the great blaze in the heart of all living it is there deep in the heart where you will find Him. there is nothing that is not Him for everything is made from this energy, the Source. lose false ego and realize what you truly are. unite with the Self and find your path to where you belong you can take the elevator or the stairs to the top which will you choose all paths go in the same direction some fast and others slow try to have a talk with Him next time your eating Gods flesh he doesnt use words but everything else to speak to let you know that He is there i e the way the wind will touch your face awareness is key
close your eyes focus on Him and listen. he who knows Spirit becomes Spirit

(Message edited by SPIRIT on July 26, 2004)

(Message edited by SPIRIT on July 26, 2004)

#28 Guest_soul_*

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 06:07 AM

all religon has one goal to get you to surrender to God

#29 shedthemonkey

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 08:55 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

all religon has one goal to get you to surrender to God<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

That and to seperate the sinner from the root of all evil: Their Money.

One does not need the crutch of an organized religion when there is true spirituality to be had for as little as 5 dried grams. Unless of course you like the fellowship and social aspects which can be quite nice. No one needs an intercession of human form or device. Reach out. Touch the spriritual. It is all around you and it IS you. But I digress. Good to see that you are another SOUL on a quest for truth.

Oh, by the way, not to be nitpicky as religions have been doing this for thousands of years, but IF there is a singular GOD, to think of it as male is limiting and classifying and putting this force of creation into a small box. SHE works just as well for pronoun convenience and may be closer to the truth. But of course no one knows. Just sayin.

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#30 Guest_lord_*

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Posted 10 August 2004 - 09:30 PM

everything living has a soul. everything is made of energy one inferior the other superior conscious souls eveything is made from the one so we are all one interconnected. the soul cannot die the body can it is made of the earth and so it returns. it an material by product i e your parents bodies made your body but not the soul
it cannot be created nor destroyed it is immortal traveling from body to body like a man that change clothes until the ultimate goal is attain which is reunion with the One ,Self, Supreme Soul which all creation came. where like a spark from a flame. a minute piece from the great blaze in the heart of all living it is there deep in the heart where you will find Him. there is nothing that is not Him for everything is made from this energy, the Source. lose false ego and realize what you truly are. unite with the Self and find your path to where you belong you can take the elevator or the stairs to the top which will you choose all paths go in the same direction some fast and others slow try to have a talk with Him next time your eating Gods flesh he doesnt use words but everything else to speak to let you know that He is there i e the way the wind will touch your face awareness is key
close your eyes focus on Him and listen. he who knows Spirit becomes Spirit


This is very interesting. If I am a piece of GOD, I am GOD. What I do not understand about what you say is, what is the purpose of the body? Shamanism seems to consider the body co equal to the soul as it is a part of nature, it grew from nature, so to speak.

I also do not understand why, that if I came from the supreme godhead, should I have to climb a ladder and change bodies like I change cloths. What makes one piece of this Godhead inferior or superior to another?

I do not quite understand this, please elaborate on this..

(Message edited by thoth on August 11, 2004)

#31 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 10 August 2004 - 11:13 PM

we are not bodies with souls.
we are souls with bodies.
i think roseanne said that
but it's true.
we change bodies
because they get damaged and wear out.

(Message edited by admin on August 12, 2004)

#32 Guest_jeklhyd_*

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 09:19 AM

So you are talking about reincarnation?


#33 Guest_psycho_*

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 03:03 PM

I think that the reason we are made to climb ladders is probably because as the rest of existence we are a cycle of actions ,thoughts etc...and in a cycle things must regress to grow again...do you think if you were aware of your purpose or existence here that you would even experience this reality?I think not...my belief is that if you become aware or the more you become aware the less you will have to expereince this and become aware of the rest of everything....as a shaman's goal is to become as much of an expert in the experiencing of this reality and the "waking life"(great movie by the way)at the same time.

this reminds me of a south american shaman I saw on national geographic channel who stopped his rituals after having a vision where he stood in a long ascending line waiting for what he knew to be the power of existence...he then asked where he was going and was told that he had reached a point where he would have all his questions answered.but that he would not be able to return....he felt it was'nt his time so he walked away from it and stopped his ayahuasca rituals and now is a painter and paints his visions for others to see.

just like him i believe that if we knew,we would'nt be here or have a reason to be here...helping others reach the same conclusion or path or whatever.

I'm just not sure if I should be glad or not that I'm still learning a path and not yet dead or aware....out of so many faded experiences that have taught me and shown me the oneness and confusion that is reality i know it will be an infinite second when the dmt shoots out of cerebral cortex and rushes out to create the experience that will show me the"oh that's what it is...DUH I feel stupid now"and there I went to become good fertilizer for a good pot strain.

#34 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 05:24 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

So you are talking about reincarnation? <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
not exactly,
lots of pseudo-mystic garbage tied up with that philosophy that need not be true.
more like spirit evolution

#35 Guest_lord_*

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 09:58 PM

we are not bodies with souls.
we are souls with bodies.


This is interesting. Might you think that the soul, over several million years, could change a group of primates into tool using humans? Perhaps it is the soul that created life in this universe to begin with and has moved this life from simple to more complex forms. Why? For what purpose?

I do not know if I buy into this talk of souls ascending. It smells too much of theosophy too me and gets into things like having master souls and student souls, etc.

For me at least it I see the body, the mind and the soul as one being, even though part of that being dies. I just believe the body has just as much meaning. Jesus, the Budha, Krishna etc, all realized their own divinity not in the spirit, but rather as a spirit in a body. When we eat the mushroom or drink the vine we use the body. The same goes for prayer, meditation, chanting etc.

You speak of spirit evolution Hippie. Do you believe that the spirit know where it is going and what it wishes to become? Do you think it directs the process?

I have often had the impression, during altered states of mind, that what I consider to be GOD and what I consider the soul to be the same thing. Its just that in this moment I am experiancing things as an individual becouse I am in the body. If this is the case, all life shares the same soul and the illusion is in being seperate. Have you ever had the experiance where you are not seperate? I suspect everyone here has at least once. Its an insite that seems to be a gift from the mushroom. For me at least I did not fully bring that experiance back, but I am forever changed by it. A part of that experiance is always a part of me.



Psyconaut,

You make some interesting observation. are you speaking of the shaman Pablo Amaringo? I have a book of his paintings. They are very interesting and a few of them include visions of what we would consider UFO's, compleat with windows and entities . Very interesting stuff...



#36 Guest_psycho_*

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 11:00 PM

I'm not sure what his name was.It might be him though if he paints his ayahuasca visions.

and it is quite an experience when you have one though,enough for me to change my whole life.

check out this link on clinical studies of salvia http://www.maps.org/.../13118han.ht ml cool read and shows its use in "general problem solving, such as finding lost objects"and ceremony

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"several patients have reported benefits of a broadly 'psychospiritual' quality from their unsanctioned occasional use of larger doses of this herb, incorporating such experiences as loss of body awareness (e.g. becoming numbers, household objects), "<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

loss of body awareness and becoming household objects...hmmm...I wonder what my computer feels like with all the drugs and porn in its hard drive?time to bust out the 20x extract.

nothing says "your just like everything else" more than becoming a chair. Posted Image

#37 Guest_lord_*

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 11:26 PM

Yes it can change your life. It took many experiances with mother Ayahuasca to change me. It took at least 4 before the spirit of the vine showed itself to me. It seems to be a process of sorts that happens in stages.

I am glad to see that MAPS is beginning to realize there is more out there besides MDMA! That is a very interesting artical, thank you for the link!

#38 Guest_lord_*

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 11:43 PM

"lots of pseudo-mystic garbage tied up with that philosophy that need not be true.
more like spirit evolution"

Very true. What I do not understand is that if I am a soul or spirit, that is in a body, why do I and other souls come to the physical to look for spiritual things. Why would a soul come here to evolve, when its origion is the very place it aspires to return to? Its like going back to first grade before going to college.

I would think it better to concentrate on physical existance wile I exist in it, this is why I believe the "gnosis" lay in the body and not the spirit. That it is the phyical world that holds the key rather than the spiritual. Why else would we be here?

One could even go so far as to say that our physical existance IS the higher plane of existance.

Its very hard to say "what is what". I grew up in a culture based on "near eastern death cults". I have that bias stuck in my mind, most of use do. But it is interesting to question these concepts. I cant buy into anything just becouse some sage or book says it is so.




#39 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:43 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Why would a soul come here to evolve, when its origion is the very place it aspires to return to? Its like going back to first grade before going to college. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
ah,
but that's just your jaded interpretation to rate this world as 'first grade'.
it's far more than that.
and i can easily give good reasons for powerful spirits to come here-
to learn humility, to learn weakness, to learn suffering and loss.


#40 Guest_psycho_*

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 04:09 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

to learn humility, to learn weakness, to learn suffering and loss.
<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I think you hit the nail on the head hippie.




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