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Shamanism: "Old Time Religion"


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#41 Guest_lord_*

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 06:51 PM

"ah,
but that's just your jaded interpretation to rate this world as 'first grade'.
it's far more than that.
and i can easily give good reasons for powerful spirits to come here-
to learn humility, to learn weakness, to learn suffering and loss. "

The word "jaded" does fit the bill, as it does mean "exhausted".Posted Image

"to learn humility, to learn weakness, to learn suffering and loss. "

I do not know you and I could interpret this from many viewpoints. If you speak from the Christian/Islamic viewpoint that I MUST endure my suffering in order to be saved, I do not agree with you.

As far as the soul goes. So far, I have seen nothing to make me think that such values have any bearing on it. I just want to experience it for myself, without having to fool with things like dogma and worn out concepts such as religion.
Religion did not give us freedom, nor democracy. It told us the earth was flat, it told us we where the center of the universe, it would rather see a woman have to a dismal life with an unwanted child, or humans live in pain and sickness because of a ban on stem cell reaserch.

If you speak from the viewpoint that the soul will become stronger due to the trials of this existance I can agree with you totally. It makes perfect sense to me that the soul, an entity from a static dimension would come here to grow. Things tend to evolve from the simple to the more complex here. Atoms become stars become molecules become cells become humans. Perhaps "spirit" wishes to evolve also, and what better place than here.

I wonder what it wants to become? It makes sense why it came here. But what is its goal?

I do not mean to offend anyone by my banter here. This thread is very interesting to me. I am of the belief that I cannot use books to solve these questions. Nor can I use the work others have done in the past because I do not live in their world. I saw a saying on the front page of the site that said "Know thyself". It said "know thyself". not know thy culture, religion or belief system, I just happened to be born into. Why not ask myself, who I am, and not accept what culture says I should be? It would certainly make less baggage to carry through this life.

For me at least, I cannot accept anything unless I have first experienced it. I agree totally with the above statement, the one that started the thread. Its simple, and it agrees with the "core" of my existence. At least for me, I think it best to ask questions and try to find the answers in my self. I cannot accept religion, nor superstition. I have tried hard to rid myself of these things.

LOL! This is getting way to serious. I know I exist, I know that I will never cease to exist. So far this seems to be the only truth I have found, existence.

What has been strange is the fact that when I eat the mushroom or cactus, or drink the brew, I realize my existance does not just lay between my ears. Its much larger than just my skull. People have told me its an illusion, until I give them a taste.

What interests me is where this experience is going to take us as a species, and as a group of individual souls. It is true that we have had these things for thousands of years. But now we have the technology to actually do something with the experience.}

#42 shedthemonkey

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:09 PM

On my first major trip (6gm of mushies in quiet darkness) the entity in the mushroom said that life is just this: living. There is no goal. This is all just the divine mind at play here in the physical world being the players and the props. Live. It is it's own reward. Amazing that the stupidest movies can sometimes have the best quotes. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure: "Be Excellent to each other. Party on."
and Dude, Where's My Car?: "Let it go, Dude"
and Harold and Kumar go to White Castle: "What kind of Hippie are you?...I'm a Business Hippie!" Ok that last one was not so profound but was very funny. Humor has a big role in my life and I honor the spirit of joy and fun. :-)

Posted Image

#43 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 11:03 AM

i think one reason we come is to learn the why behind the laws.
it's easy for a god to decree
ye must not steal
it's entirely another matter
to fully comprehend the why behind the law.
one must suffer thru the pain of loss to know why.
ditto for life itself,
how can one fully understand mortality
without being mortal ?
we come to learn good and evil
and to see why good is better, if it is,
and to make our choice with full knowledge,
only then is the choice meaningful.


#44 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 11:05 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

There is no goal. This is all just the divine mind at play here in the physical world being the players and the props. Live. It is it's own reward<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
the goal quite simply
is the greatest story ever told,
the divine comedy.
theater in its' ultimate form.

#45 Guest_rodger_*

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 02:20 PM

Perhaps the gods come because they realize we're a higher lifeform than they are, and they aspire to be like us, and to live their lives through us? After all, we have both a physical and spiritual being, so doesn't that raise us above them on the evolutionary scale?

#46 Guest_jeklhyd_*

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 01:09 AM

I think each of us lives in an entirely different world. I don't think there is a difference between secular and spiritual experience. It seems contrived to say, "Ok now I'm going to have a mystical experience." It also seems contrived to say, "Ok now this activity has more significance than that one." Like lighting a candle has more meaning than eating a bowl of cereal. It's all part of it. No one word of this post is more important than another. No one action that I make has any more or less impact than any other. If you do that then you're patting yourself on the back for how smart you are and you'll soon be knocked off your pedestal.

#47 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 07:24 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

No one word of this post is more important than another. No one action that I make has any more or less impact than any other.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
that's pretty hard to agree with,
i doubt it's even close to being true.
differences do matter.


#48 Guest_jeklhyd_*

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 01:41 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

differences do matter. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Agreed, but I said more important.
Take a clock for example. Each gear is different, but remove any one and it won't work anymore. No gear is more important to making the clock what it is.
Maybe I'm reading something into this thread that isn't here, but I get the impression that the general idea is that the body is material like dirt and somehow inferior to the spirit. And that after death the body falls apart but the spirit goes on.

"One could even go so far as to say that our physical existance IS the higher plane of existance. "

This is primarily what I was responding to. I don't see a need to differentiate between what is physical and what is not.


#49 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 01:58 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

And that after death the body falls apart but the spirit goes on. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
we KNOW that after death the body falls apart,
that is not debateable.
the question then becomes spiritual,
is there life after death ?
i believe there is,
as well as life before birth.
science teaches us that even the universe is disposable, stars die, oceans go dry,
life ultimately perishes in its physical form.
faith teaches us that it was never 'real' in the first place, it's a mere hologram meant to house our consciousness.


#50 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 02:02 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Take a clock for example. Each gear is different, but remove any one and it won't work anymore. No gear is more important to making the clock what it is.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
there are parts of a clock that one can remove
also the the human body
you can remove a kidney
but gotta have a heart
so heart is more important
although both have vital functions

#51 Guest_jeklhyd_*

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 03:48 PM

Good point, you've got me thinking...

#52 Guest_jeklhyd_*

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 01:44 AM

After much deliberation, i've realized my best course of action is to get a lobotomy...

#53 Guest_hippie3_*

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 01:56 PM

i rather have a bottle in front of me
than a frontal lobotomy

#54 Guest_soul_*

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 11:37 PM

i would say tht the goal of life is to reestablish your relationship with the One
we are all fallen souls stuck here in the land of the cell like jail to find where you come from and give thax n praise were it is due to the most high. once you have love of God then youll have love of thyself and be able to love everyspirit as you love yourself
the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls. on finding one pearl of great value went and sold all that he had and bought it. so dont get caught up in the physical

hip used the analogy of the heart bu}t if the spirit of the One was removed then there would be no life.
What makes one piece of this Godhead inferior or superior to another?

material is inferior to the spiritual for the spirit is what causes the material to take form and or move whether body, building, or world
One Life
One Truth
WE are all One



#55 Guest_thoth_*

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:44 PM

"material is inferior to the spiritual for the spirit is what causes the material to take form and or move whether body, building, or world
One Life
One Truth
WE are all One "

I find you very interesting Soul.

Who is this "I" we keep talking about here? I think the answers lay in this "I" and nowhere else. I agree with you totaly and understand your concept of "unity".

I disagree with you on the concept of the "I" being a fallen soul. I have spent a week in contemplation on this subject. Even drank some extracted "shroom juice" and comptemplated the "I" in that reality.

I am. This much is certain. I exist. In speaking to the "I", I have come to a very strange conclusion of who the "I" is. I do not see it as a piece or a part of something, but rather one thing. I also see this one thing as being the same thing for everyone and everything. I think that the differance between what the "I" is now, as opposed to when we where born, and when we die, is only experiancing the universe as an individual when in a physical body.

This sounds odd, but at least in my opinion, it explains alot. There is no reason to believe we are trapped here. Perhaps the "I" is mearly trying to use our physical bodies to expand its reality beyond the spiritual world. To grow. What better way to do this than to give yourself the illusion of being seperate pieces and parts. Each part has its own lessons and experiances, it is much more productive as the physical universe has a finite life and will decay in time.

Its also my opinion that the material is in no way inferior to the spiritual. Why should this be? "I" am here, I would not be here unless there was some advantage to it. The physical world is indeed a part of who "I" am at this moment in time. I would consider heaven to be just as sacred as earth, as the sould is just as sacred as the body. At this moment "I" am learning through the body, and growing.

I do not believe nature would produce a body, with a brain, and a conection to the "I" if its only purpose was to hold the "I" in bondage. It seems to be a symbiosis of sorts. Each "reality" benefits from the union of soul and body. One is no better nor worse than the other. I am shure this case for the spiritual world being better than the physical is just a case of the "grass being greener on the other side".

For the last 6000 years we have been under the illusion that we are seperate from nature and the universe in general. That we where created by some sort of "GOD" in the sky. I am of the opinion that this "GOD" is nothing more than our "EGO". So much of what I have experianced seems to indicate this.

My point is, why debate this? Why meditate on it and contemplate it. Why look outside when its all inside? Is it not true that when people go on spiritual quests they always return to themselves. At least in my case it began with "Who am I" and ended with "I am". To me, these simple questions are the basis of every religious teaching known and unknown to us. Jesus asked the question and the answer came to him in the cultural context of the ancient Hebrews, the Budha asked it and it came to him through the context of hinduism.

We live in interesting times becouse people are starting to possess one culture, and few realy believe in "GOD" or "GODS" anymore. I am shure they say they do but from my experiance its more of a hope. I suspect the next major experiance in our spiritual understanding will come through the "I". Rather than through the EGO, or "GODS". It began with Socrates and perhaps his use of an Etheogen. I would suspect that its still beginning and we are a part of this new reality, perhaps a new state of being. Its only been less than 3000 years since Socrates told us to "know thy self". Our species is much older than that.



#56 Guest_soul_*

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 04:49 AM

fallen soul not as in being evil but as in decending from the Source. we are in bondage to this material world until we are liberated the body isnt less sacred for it is the temple and home of the spirit buts it temporary.what good is the temple without the spirit.
world(maya) is the illusion
1 that we are all separate
2 that we are this body
when you meditate if deep enough your dropping the body tapping the Source (God the I or One) in the heart understanding in your heart Truth not going by what you see which you r eyes.
Out of nature comes the body but nature doesnt produce the body but the spirit does using natures elements is it does for everything.
as for the grass being greener.
in material worlds we have old age disease death.
spirit is immortal and pure no death disease or old age just bliss like an dreamless sleep no attachments to the illusion of your dreams will you be conscious to notice
you say that GOD is nothing more than our EGO but its more like our EGO wants to be GOD lose it
its one thing that keep us separate then we fall together we stand
in a way we are like GOD but more like godlings
we have the same powers but not on the same scale
what do you uses yours for (will)
as for us being expansions of the Spiritual world so it can grow no doubt about it but the tree will be known by its fruit theirs only two ways to go left or right dark or light material or Spiritual
and with free will the choice is yours
its a shame such a sacred place is being wasted for selfish material gain. what would the world be without Spirit.
nothing lifeless desolate
unity + love(GOD) = peace peace and peace everywhere
free thyself

BOOK
The Purpose of Life by Torkom Saraydarian clearly reveals to us that the true purpose of our lives is to establish ourselves within a spiritual identity. Only in this way can true happiness be found. By learning to love and serve others, by living according to spiritual principles, a meaningful and purposeful life is found.

(Message edited by SPIRIT on August 24, 2004)

(Message edited by spirit on August 24, 2004)

(Message edited by spirit on August 24, 2004)

#57 Guest_thoth_*

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 09:19 PM

Yes it all comes down to seperation and dis-unity. Humanity seems fragmented.

What we need is to create a new language to better communicate these concepts. Much of what we speak of can be hardly expressed in english.

#58 Guest_soul_*

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 02:55 AM

http://deoxy.org/plurifrm.htm

CHECK THIS OUT

#59 Guest_thoth_*

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 06:52 PM

Philip K. Dick!! One of my favorite authors!! Yes that is very interesting! He wrote some very interesting works of fiction in which he incorperated these ideas. Very good stuff!

#60 Guest_baggs_*

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 11:38 AM

I think have come to the conclusion that a shaman is made by the Gods or God, or spirits that be. A book of writings of other humans can have an influece on others but cannot control who or what is chosen as a conduit for spiritual awaking. Maybe it's a tree, a blade of grass, a dog or a human. Can we as humans ever tell?
The books I have read tell of varied experiences by those that have become Known shamans. I believe that there are are others that donot wish to be known that have abilities that we, as so called normal people, will never understand. I don't know if belief is a factor before a mystical experiece but I think belief is essential afterward.
A shaman beliefs can be distorted by others into a formal religeon but can this change the shaman until he or she loses the power that was granted or does this mean that the person was never a true shaman anyway?




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