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Newbie spice extract question... to defat or not to defat?


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#1 Ophiuchus

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 01:55 PM

Hi all, swim is planning on a spice extraction over the easter hols, i have been reading about different teks for the last few weeks, but getting confused by the different variations.
I (think) i have decided on Marsofolds tek, but tempted by the Lazymans. Both seem easy enough for my chemistry skill level, or lack of.

The question i have though is why does one tek soak the mhrb in vinegar first but the other tek goes straight into the naoh. Is this the defat process? And why is it not so important?

Thanks in advance, i appreciate your help!! :D

#2 mushroomfanatic

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:18 PM

in the plant, the spice is an "acid-salt" (nnDMT-HCL) it is water soluble. nnDMT(free-base) is not soluble in water, but is soluble in "non-polar solvent" The soaking in vineger(which is a weak acid) helps facilitate the release of the spice from the bark, into the water, and then you filter out the plant matter, and then basify it, making the hcl"fall off" and it becomes insoluble in water and soluble in non-polar solvents. Lets call this an A/B extraction(acid/base extraction) in the second tek it is what we call an STB (straight to base) it is not a defat, at all. It works by precipitating the dmt freebase out of the plant material. There are several ways to "clean up" the product of an extraction, one being a defat and another being an ammonia rinse, or you could just leave it dirty(pure nndmt is clearish crystals and the yellowish/orangish tint one sometimes sees is contaminants, like plant fats) I hope I explained that correctly. I also hope it is appropriate to answer this question here

#3 Ophiuchus

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:20 PM

Sorry if this question is in the wrong area, if the mods wish to move it then of course feel free.

Thanks for your reply. Think this is starting to make more sense to me now, i now realize the difference between stb and a-b... So in the stb tek the DMT is precipitated out leaving the salt behind? Is this precipitation you mention the last procedure? ...

I notice that Marsofolds a-b tek requires freeze precipitation, but the other stb tek the naphtha/dmt solution is completely evaporated down. Do you know if this is required because of the different a-b / stb procedure, or does it not matter that much?

Sorry for a the questions, the teks are really clear in what to do, im just curious on what is happening i guess.

Thanks.

#4 mushroomfanatic

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:32 PM

well, it doesn't "leave the salt behind", what happens is the chemical, breaks down and the hydrochloride "ion" is fractured from the structure, changing it's chemical properties. Niether tek "requires" freeze precipitation, you could evaporate the product of the marsafold. The benefit of freeze precipitation is you don't have to evaporate all of the naptha(and therefor lose it) You could freeze precipitate the STB product too, if you wanted, even better is distilling; you would get the goodies and save the naptha

#5 Ophiuchus

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:52 PM

I think i finally got it! Distilling sounds like a great future project too!
Thanks for explaining, much appreciated.

#6 McDozd

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:04 PM

The questions you are asking say to me that you haven't read the archives enough. Read up on more teks like Whatchamacallits.. This way you can learn how to do it. Whatever tek you decide to go with you need to follow it to the letter. My suggestion is go over whichever tek you are going to do till you can repeat it from memory. Then hop right into it. Whatchamacallit is my suggestion. Its the best written STB tek, and easy to do.
heres a link
https://mycotopia.ne...-pictorial.html

Good luck.
:hippie:

#7 morfin-56

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:06 PM

Most parts of these "teks" are interchangeable, there is no specifically right way to do an extraction.
Freeze precipitation can be done instead of evaporation and vice-versa.
STB is just converting the alkaloids in the plant into freebase form and dissolving them in a nonpolar solvent.
A/B doesn't necessarily require the defat step, but I think without the defat A/B is pointless.
My opinion has always been that one should get the basic concept before preforming an extraction so they aren't restricted to a "tek."

#8 Ophiuchus

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:06 PM

Iv read through quite a few teks over the last few weeks and took notes etc, i can follow the intructions but i was completely baffled by the chemistry. I wasn't sure if the tek's where all variations of the same thing... im thankful to have learnt now that ab is different to stb and the evap / precipitation are my choice.

What im thinking is im not sure if a defat will save me a wash at the end, as im not fancying doing a wash. (just incase i loose too much yeild, im starting with 100g of MHRB) However im wondering that if i do go with a defat with a-b method, maybe the yeild wont be as good as doing stb.

I really liked the watcha's tek, but it means sourcing more chems for the clean.

Thanks for your input!! ;)
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