Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Intro and Strange Contam


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1 BitterApple

BitterApple

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 44 posts

Posted 21 May 2006 - 10:04 PM

Hi everyone,

Although this is my first post, my first visit to the site was a couple years ago (before the change, which looks great btw, and thank you for providing this site hippie. Also thanks to whomever else it is due).

Since then I have 3 times tried the PF tek, and I am 11 days into the 3rd try. All three times I have noticed something suspicious, and I cannot tell if it is a contaminate or not. I threw the first two batches away.

At first there are water drops on the inside surface of the jar - no big deal. About 7 days in, the water drops dont look like water anymore. They look thick and gelatinous. But they are still crystal clear. Finally, by day 11 some white growth appears in the middle of these clear gelatin/water drops. I've used the contamination key in the book titled "The Mushroom Cultivator" in hopes of identifying the growth, but I could find no matches in that book.

I've read in the archives that if the humidity is too high in a fruiting chamber then cottony growth can appear on the mycelium. I'm wondering if this is what is happening in my jars. Except the white growth is completely detached from the mycelium structure, and seems to start in the middle of the "water" - the result being a white cottony dot in the center of a "water" drop.

I will upload a picture if anyone wants, but I doubt it will show very well on a photo. Some quick background info: I baked the brf and verm @ 375 degrees for 21 minutes and I pressure cooked the filled jars for 27 minutes @ 13 psi. The syringe needle was cleaned with rubbing alcohol before use. The Jars have been kept between 75 and 82 degrees. Strain = Hawaiin, but I've tried Taz and PB as well, all with the same results.

If anyone can help I would really appreciate it. I hesitate to throw this batch out because I have only one syringe left and I dont think I'll be able to get more.

Thanks :eusa_pray

#2 perrch01

perrch01

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 1,473 posts

Posted 21 May 2006 - 10:22 PM

I see growth similar that what you are describing on a regular basis, that being said I don't usually have that many problems with contams- maybe give it longer to see what happens? the other thing to consider is that often the mycelium can overtake some contaminants.

Also you may want to try steam sterilizing your jars instead of baking them in the oven- i know this works well for bags but i believe the general consensus is to steam sterilize or pressure cook for the jars due to the difficulty in getting the internal temperatures up to an effective range.


Welcome to the topia and check through the archives for info on contams and also check out the karo teks to make your last syringes go a lot further...

#3 encapsulated

encapsulated

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 493 posts

Posted 21 May 2006 - 11:37 PM

There is no need to bake the verm,brf mix in the oven just pc it for 1 hour at 15psi if your pc doesnt go up too 15 psi then i would say pc it at the affore mentioned 13 psi for like 1 hour and 15 min..... and as far as that thing you think is a contam you should upload the best pic you can take b/c it will help ppl identify the problem alot easier and quicker!!!!! good luck on your adventure though and sorry i cant help out with the possible contam question:(

#4 encapsulated

encapsulated

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 493 posts

Posted 21 May 2006 - 11:38 PM

Oh and welcome to mycotopia glad to have you:):teeth:

#5 BitterApple

BitterApple

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 44 posts

Posted 22 May 2006 - 12:07 PM

Thanks for the welcome.

I forgot to mention that I did check the contamination pictures in the archive but did not find what I am seeing in my jars. Here are some pictures. Flash didnt work well so I went without and the jars are more white in reality than the picture shows, which is why I put a white piece of paper behind one picture to demonstrate the color distortion. They are in real life *almost* the same color as the paper.

I flipped a few upside down as growth has halted or slowed dramatically since the tenth day. And I will check the karo teks, thanks.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1.JPG
  • 4.JPG


#6 prismaticEffects

prismaticEffects

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 440 posts

Posted 22 May 2006 - 12:13 PM

i could be wrong-
it looks healthy though...

#7 the_chosen_one

the_chosen_one

    electro gypsy

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 8,113 posts

Donator

Posted 22 May 2006 - 12:43 PM

I flipped a few upside down as growth has halted or slowed dramatically since the tenth day. And I will check the karo teks, thanks.


Welcome!:dance:

Being that you sterilized using the oven chances are the top of the jar is a bit dry so flipping them is good, gravity will wick the water down to the dry areas. But you also noted seeing condensation on the sides of the jar so I'm willing to bet they need a little air. Loosening the lid just a little or removing the tape will help. 10 days is usually a lack of air stall. leave the lids loose til some rhiz begins to form then you can gradually tighten them as the jar begins to finish colonizing.

The LC is a very good idea on stretching that syringe too!

Good luck and keep us posted!

#8 BitterApple

BitterApple

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 44 posts

Posted 22 May 2006 - 01:12 PM

There has been a little bit of confusion about the oven baking which is my fault for not being clear. I baked the rice flour and verm in the oven before mixing them with water. Then I added water, put the mixture in the jars, and pressure cooked the finished substrate jars.

The reason I baked the dry ingredients first was an additional step in eliminating contams since I had already had two failed attempts, one of which entailed steaming the jars for 2 hours. At this point I'm almost at a loss. Either I need a glovebox and use it right, I bought dirty syringes, or there are no contams and I'm just paranoid.

On the glove box, I did build one, put everything inside, sprayed with lysol (jars were covered with foil and syringe was capped), waited 10 minutes, but then I realized some of the jars were water logged. I took the syran wrap top off the glovebox to identify the waterlogged jars and take them out. Then I continued innoculation inside the glovebox with the lid off. I only knocked up the jars that were not waterlogged.

chosen_one - is LC an abbreviation and if so can you spell out the name? Is it one of the karo teks? Thanks

#9 the_chosen_one

the_chosen_one

    electro gypsy

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 8,113 posts

Donator

Posted 22 May 2006 - 01:58 PM

LC is Liquid Culture..sorry sometimes us "oldtimers" forget where we came from hehehe. Karo and Vanilla extract work very well. If i can dig up some links I'll post them here.

PCing alone should be fine. You can skip the oven all together. Yep, now it really sounds like a lack of gas exchange stall. You may have a bacterial contam but I can't see it in your pics. I would put those jars lid side up and loosen the lids a bit. Give'm a little time to recover...I bet you'll be fine even if there is a light bacteria contam. After this batch clean your grow chamber real well with bleach before putting in new cakes. I'm still doubtful of contam tho especially using the PF tek. You can usually take the lids off altogether for a brief time and the dry layer of vermic will protect the substrate.

Is there anything that looks like yellow slime? Especially around the grain chunks?

#10 the_chosen_one

the_chosen_one

    electro gypsy

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 8,113 posts

Donator

Posted 22 May 2006 - 02:05 PM

http://mycotopia.net...splay.php?f=116

Here's some good teks for Liquid Culture;) I'm a big fan of Lazlo's

#11 Lazlo

Lazlo

    old hand

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 7,620 posts

Posted 22 May 2006 - 04:14 PM

Those jars look great. When growth begins to really take off in jars (say 30%+), condensation will build like that for the most part where mycelium is colonizing. If you're sticking to the 60cc's of water per 1/2 pint jar and not allowing water to leak into the jars during sterilizing, they should be fine for inoculation as long as they are completely cooled down. Good luck and relax a bit.:hippie:

#12 BitterApple

BitterApple

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 44 posts

Posted 22 May 2006 - 06:08 PM

That's great, so for now I will sit tight and let you guys know what it looks like in a week or so. That gives me a while to catch up on liquid culture. :rasta:

#13 Hippie3

Hippie3

    DUNG DEALER

  • Founders
  • 40,642 posts

Posted 23 May 2006 - 02:56 PM

yeah, they look fine
but any tape over lid holes
should be removed ASAP, if present.

#14 SharkieJones

SharkieJones

    Moderator

  • OG VIP
  • 3,269 posts

Posted 23 May 2006 - 03:15 PM

Jars are looking good, I'm not sure that you have a problem other than having too many steps in your process.

#15 BitterApple

BitterApple

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 44 posts

Posted 29 May 2006 - 06:45 PM

Well being full of angst and paranoia, I did a stupid thing today. In two (and only two) of my jars, if I tipped them upside down and looked toward the lid I could see patches of black. Thinking it was black mold or some other contam, I decided I would open one outside and cut off the contam and try the bleach dunk.

When I opened the jar there was no black mold. Instead I had a healthy jar of mycelium that grew through the verm barrier and colonized the top of the verm barrier. So I chanced a smell and got a whiff of mushroomy goodness.

I cut the verm barrier off and then noticed an uncolonized center, so I cut the cake in half hoping to get the uncolonized part out but the entire center is uncolonized, or at least it isnt solid white like the outside of the cake is.

I bleach dunked it and will try to finish it out using the Chronik Tek. I did not open the other jar with "black mold" near the top. It was probably only a shadow. :eusa_wall

Maybe one day i will learn patience :eusa_wall

I threw the cut portion of the cake into some dirt in the garden. Probably wont grow but I figured what does it hurt?

I'm guessing that the small uncolonized portions which are present on the outside of all of my cakes are because of too much water. I went with the maximum fruiting formula but might have gone a little over. Can anyone tell me if over-wet substrate will eventually colonize? And might my little cake still survive?

#16 hogwild

hogwild

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 1,088 posts

Posted 29 May 2006 - 07:58 PM

i dont usually use the pf maximum fruiting formula w/ the 60ccs because it seems a little excessive in the water, at least in my experience w/ this mix.

I use anywhere between 40-50 ccs but no more, it seems to get just too damn soggy w/ 60cc's maybe with fine verm it would work better, but with medium verm being the only thing available for me 40-50ccs is perfect.

#17 akoutdoors

akoutdoors

    Mycotopiate

  • Expired Member
  • 344 posts

Posted 29 May 2006 - 08:21 PM

Yah IMO the amount of H2o to be used is very relative to the coarseness of the Flower and BRF. I switched to hand ground BRF and I have to grind my vermiculite from the bigger bag now so that put my H2o ratio out of whack it took a bit of working with it to get it right so dont do a big batch unless you have tried those particular ingredients before.
I have had some cakes survive that were too wet but they took 2 months to fully colonise and contams got most of Em.
GOOD LUCK AND HAPPY GROWING

#18 BitterApple

BitterApple

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 44 posts

Posted 30 May 2006 - 12:04 AM

So is there anything I can do to reduce the moisture? Higher temps maybe? Give more air?

#19 BitterApple

BitterApple

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 44 posts

Posted 02 June 2006 - 04:32 PM

Well my jars are contaminated. I'll post a couple photos just for confirmation. I have one shot left - I'm gonna try again with less water this time as was recommended (thanks for the tip). This will be my fourth try and I've read so many posts where people said they got it right on their first. I'm starting to question my own intelligence. :eusa_doh:
At the same time trying the pf jars again I'll start by using 1 cc in a LC jar so hopefully maybe that will save my ass. If anyone has any "extra" tips for people like me then I'd really appreciate it.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 2.JPG
  • 1.JPG


#20 HerbertWest

HerbertWest

    Mycophiliac

  • Expired Member
  • 2 posts

Posted 02 June 2006 - 05:06 PM

While on the subject of contamination. I recently tried the brf method with some old spores I had in syringes. Well I did what your supposed to do and it was a bust. One day lacking anything to do. I took all the brf mix out of my jars and attempted it to sterilise the material. I didn't have any money to get new stuff at the time. Well I baked it, nuked it and thought I might have actually sterilised the substrate mix. I also added some corn muffin mix and grouind up white rice. I did the jar thing and inoculated them with some spore prints that I had. Anyway about three days later the jars started working. But they still had that fruity smell about them. But the mycelium looks healthy. So I'm just going to let them go and see what happens. Now I have the money to do it right, but I'm going to see how the other turns out. Also has anyone ever inoculated two different strains into a BRF and if so what happened ?




Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!