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Fun In The Sun -- Solar Pasteurization


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#41 Foster

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 09:29 PM

Oh wow, missed that question while I was laughing Soliver.   If it was to me. I cant tell im still laughing. 

 

Can I chill Beer with it?   That sounds like a challenge. lol.

 

I'll try it. Even if i wont drink it.        I guarantee it will dehydrate some fungi, or dry some herb though. :)  You just bring some, I'll prove it. eheh. 


Edited by Foster, 25 July 2015 - 09:33 PM.


#42 Myc

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 09:55 AM

"The next morning, shortly after 9am, I checked my temps. WHAT?! This cant be right! No way!

Max outside temp was 91.8ºF
Min outside temp was 73ºF

The temp of the water in the jar (drum roll please) 44ºF. That's right 44º!."

 

Well, it's good to see that I wasn't hallucinating.  This time. 

 

So the theory is ... that somehow this thing is sucking cold air from the night sky?  That doesn't make one lick of sense. 

 

Someone feel free to explain?

 

:)

 

soliver

 

I can think of only one other idea to test as a hypothesis.

 

The works of Viktor Schauberger might also explain how this "phenomenon" works.

Schauberger was a student of Nature who discovered some really neat things about water. He claimed water is "alive" like living plants.......and us. Makes sense being that both of the aforementioned biological beings are composed of mostly..............water.

 

I think of our world and how an ancient book describes how there was called into being a "firmament" which has the purpose of dividing "the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament"

Then, I think the nature of our existence - how we are largely composed of water. Also, how we breathe water - being that  "atmosphere" is evaporated water. We are, quite literally, wet behind the ears. ;)

 

Schauberger discovered that water has a "desired temperature" of 39*F - called the anomaly point - at which it is at its densest. 

Water does interesting things when exposed to sunlight as well as when hidden or shielded from sunlight.

It would be interesting to attempt to devise an experiment with this idea in mind.

 

My own thoughts which led me to Shauberger's work:

Water is electro-magnetically reactive. You can alter the path of a stream of water with a charged rod. I've proven both of these things to myself and they're commonly known in science. 

Being involved with electricity, I want to understand. 

If we're all wet............  Wet inside - being composed largely of water. Wet outside - living within a thin skin of water vapor which clings (somehow) to our planet's surface. We breathe it, we drink it, we bathe in it...........

Makes a truly curious mind begin to ask.........

 

A study of art shows that without both light and darkness - there is no coherent image. In other words, "color" appears on the boundary edge between dark and light. I also find it ironic that light and dark were divided just before this "firmament" was called into being to divide the "waters" which apparently have existed for all of time.

Perhaps we "exist" on the boundary between wet and dry? (Thinking in terms of energy only - with no "substance" being in existence.)

Anywho......there's my .02 in regards to the apparent temperature loss. 


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#43 TVCasualty

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 11:04 AM

Take an infrared thermometer and point it at the sky on a clear night and you'll see why you can use radiant cooling to passively create temperatures lower than the ambient air temperature.

 

In mid-Summer, on a dry night the air temperature can be in the 70's but the IR thermometer might tell you that the sky is ~25℉. When I've done that in mid-Winter at night (air temp was ~20℉) the sky was colder than my thermometer could register (it bottoms out at -58℉!). Also, the lower the rH, the greater the difference in temperatures, i.e. water vapor is doing the "greenhouse gas" thing. That's why deserts can have a daytime high in the mid-80's (℉) but the low might drop to the upper-20's. I remember many days like that in the Spring and Fall when I lived in the desert, but fewer in Summer since the radiant-cooling effect can't overcome the thermal momentum of long days with the shorter nights.

 

Down around the Gulf Coast the humidity greatly reduces the radiant cooling effect, which is why there are many days in that region where the high might be 90℉ and the low only drops to 80℉ (and that might be the forecast for all of July and August). There are days in the Spring and Fall (and Winter occasionally) when the high and low temp are nearly the same (ugh...), or others where the temperature in the mid-afternoon might be in the mid-40's but then later that night it rises up to the 60's. Water vapor stores so much heat that a storm front can transport it hundreds of miles inland, even at night. It's easy enough to "see" this for ourselves: On a partly-cloudy night, point an IR thermometer at a patch of clear sky and note the temp, then point it at a cloud (and note the difference).

 

I learned about this stuff while training to design solar-thermal systems a few years ago at the Florida Solar Energy Center (down yonder next to Cape Canaveral). I had essentially the same question; why the hell are freeze-protection valves required on active- or passive-direct solar water heaters in South Florida, where freezes are unheard of?!? [Note: "Direct" systems heat the water itself, so if it does freeze, your system is screwed. "Indirect" systems use a food-safe antifreeze mix and a heat exchanger so they won't freeze/burst until the temp drops well below freezing (it's actual freeze temp depends on the concentration of glycol in your mix)].     

 

Turns out, the temperature in S. Florida can drop to or even a bit below 45℉. That doesn't sound too bad, but that also happens to be the air temperature that triggers freeze-protection valves to pop open because a direct solar hot water system can freeze solid and burst at that temperature. It requires an exceptionally-clear night, which is not too common, but it does happen and replacing a burst roof-mounted solar-thermal system $uck$.

 

Knowing about and attending to all of that questionably-relevant thermodynamic minutiae allows one to envision and design novel ways of moving heat around, which is ultimately what most of life boils down to, so to speak.


Edited by TVCasualty, 26 July 2015 - 11:08 AM.

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#44 happy4nic8r

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 03:59 PM

Part of the definition of life as we know it, is that it exists at the temp of liquid water on this planet. 

 

You could argue that it wouldn't die out if frozen, but I think it's deeper than that, to it wouldn't have started on a frozen water planet, or a steam temp.

 

So we are really nothing much more than an extension of water, and the variances that TV cites, are the not very stretches of the limits of our experience here in this life.

 

Working with environmental chambers to speed up and monitor corrosion at my last job, I was impressed with how humidity and temp are so intertwined, and if you add a little salt, you can really do some serious damage to almost anything.

 

It's a good thing, I think that, we are in such a limited range of environmental variables, otherwise it could get really crazy, (like it doesn't?)


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#45 Il19z8rn4li1

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:24 AM

I love this stuff.

 

Thermal bridging and dynamics are epic and need more study imo.

 

Especially in the designing of greenhouses that can produce the worlds food :) 



#46 Foster

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 03:54 PM

Very interesting Myc. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. Its deep bro, But I dig it.!

 

Right on TVC! Thanks for that info. An IR thermometer is next on my list of must haves.  I need one to check an engine as well.

 

The freezing potential of a passive solar hot water system, in above freezing temps, is not something I had considered.

We are actually trying to design one for use in the desert. As simple as possible.  

Now I need to rethink things lol.

 

Oh yeah, Ill have more questions for sure.

 

Thanks all ya'll for reviving this old thread.  Great new info and insights. 



#47 Myc

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:12 AM

Take an infrared thermometer and point it at the sky on a clear night and you'll see why you can use radiant cooling to passively create temperatures lower than the ambient air temperature.

 

 

The purchase of an IR thermometer has been seriously considered on a number of occasions. 

I'm frankly baffled by the varying array of test apparatus available.

 

Help a brother out TVC?

http://en-us.fluke.c...s/thermometers/

 

Above is a link to Fluke's product page. In comparing their various products it appears as though some choices need to be made. From model to model it looks like one needs to consider the types of measurements required in the form of distance from the target, min/max anticipated test temps, ........ many things come into play when considering purchase.

I also notice that none of them have a range of infinity - to be pointed at outer space - or even cloud formations - but that won't stop me from trying either. It could just mean that they need to be modified with more powerful lasers. ;)

 

I have been pondering your account and am still thinking - (this may take awhile) - If you smell something like a tire fire burning........that's just me.

My personal challenge here is to avoid the accepted, established explanations and think.........differently.

 

Rain is putting a damper on solar work lately but Wild Mushrooming: Field and Forest is going gang-busters!

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#48 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 11:23 AM

I also notice that none of them have a range of infinity - to be pointed at outer space - or even cloud formations - but that won't stop me from trying either. It could just mean that they need to be modified with more powerful lasers. ;)
 

 

The laser is just a pointer to tell you where the center of the measurement is taking place. As you get further from the object you're scanning, the area it scans increases and beyond a certain range it's sampling an area too large for much practical use (but it still works fine for showing the relative temperature difference between the ground and the sky, for example).

 

Mine has a sticker on it with a diagram showing the cone of detection vs. range, and lists a ratio of Distance to Spot-size (i.e. the area being measured) as being 9:1.

 

So at 12 inches away the spot-size is 1.33 inches in diameter around the laser dot. At 36 inches the spot-size is 4 inches in diameter, and at 72 inches the spot-size is 8 inches in diameter. The above figures are printed on the sticker, and the metric ratios listed are 0.05m  dia. @ 0.5m; 0.11m dia. @ 1m; and 0.33m dia. @ 3m (I guess they rounded-up for the metric values).

 

Mine is no longer being sold but this one is comparable and for our purposes there's no reason to spend more than $50-60 on one. Northern Tool stuff goes on sale for pretty good deals occasionally so there's no reason to pay full retail if you can wait until they have their next clearance/holiday/whatever sale. Or you can probably find a decent-quality unit for $20-30 online somewhere today.

 

They're also great when your power goes out and you need to quickly check the status of your freezer, among other uses.



#49 Myc

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 08:19 AM

Thanks TVC.

I was kinda being facetious - understanding of the inverse square law helps.






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