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Drugs in the Bible???


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#21 hallucinogeneti

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 11:09 AM

I won't claim my drug use has anything to do with god, because I don't believe in the god of any organized religion.. But my drug use does have a real effect on my spirit and spiritual health, and I liken it more to medicine.


true that

pissy's right about reality. Drugs not being religious is just your reality. What about people who get possessed by the devil? Their reality is much different than ours. We all live in our own reality.

#22 srgtm1a

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 11:20 AM

Fair enough, I suppose, one can except any reality they choose.. We could argue philosophy all day, I just think that the insights gained on some "drugs" are far better than many things I have experienced in "reality", and they have significantly improved my outlook on life, regardless of what you or anyone else believes.. For anyone to say my experience is bullshit, I can only feel sorry they may not have had the same intense, amazing experiences.. I won't claim my drug use has anything to do with god, because I don't believe in the god of any organized religion.. But my drug use does have a real effect on my spirit and spiritual health, and I liken it more to medicine.. I just don't feel it's fair to denounce anyones faith, without denouncing faith itself..


I'm not saying your experience is bullshit and that it hasn't changed your life in some way....I think it has for anyone who has done it, and anyone who is on this site, self included.

My argument is against people trying to justify it by some divine right or vision....

I take shrooms quite often....for me, they give me a chance to sit back, forget about reality...and THINK. That in and of itself is what makes them great. I have the same affect though when I rent a boat, drive out to the middle of a lake, and chill for a few hours by myself.

#23 Guest_pissybee_*

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 11:27 AM

My argument is against people trying to justify it by some divine right or vision....

How do you prove it wasn't put on the planet by God, to bring people closer to "him"? Some people love God, with more passion than life, and believe "his" plan includes the use of certain drugs, what right do you have to say their belief is false? If you, yourself, experience spiritual experiences and don't equate that with God, what makes you any more right than they, if you cannot prove there is no God, or their specific God?

#24 Guest_pissybee_*

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 11:35 AM

I guess my point is, there are a few members who are saying a certain religion is bullshit, while accepting established christianity, judaism, whatever, as acceptable beliefs. Why is one okay, and another not? Because of the numbers of the following? I may be mistaken, but I think we know how some people feel about islam, which has a significant following... Who is right here? And how do we decide?

#25 srgtm1a

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 11:56 AM

I think we are getting a bit off topic from the original argument about writings about it in the bible....as far as the bible goes...there is no proof in either direction as I stated earlier.

I'm not arguing if they were put here by God or anything of the like. Of course that is impossible to prove in either direction.

The spiritual "visions" people have, IMO, are what i'm saying is bullshit. They are from drugs that cause hallucinations.

hallucinations:
Subjectively experienced sensation in the absence of an actual appropriate stimulus, but which is regarded by the individual as real, although not real.

Hell, I've seen my friend turn into "Swamp Thing" while on Acid (he has a really big vein on his forhead...he turned into swamp thing after i looked at it heheh)....that doesn't mean that he really was....it was a hallucination.

I don't think God wanted me to think my friend was really swamp thing. Religious "visions" fall under the same thing.....has nothing to do with anything...all in your head and caused by the drugs.

If that helps you with your spirituality...then as I said...go for it....but to think that there is anything religious about it is just plain silly to me.....it is an affect that is caused by a drug, nothing more.

If it is a "spiritual message" from God...then I guess God wanted to tell me my friend was really swamp thing too, or that my grass was actually purple, or that my bathroom ceiling was actually 20ft tall.

To think that God is trying to send a message through drug use....to me is just plain archaic in thought. I'm not denying that people have those experiences...just that they are nothing more than hallucinations....nothing real about it. If it helps you, or makes you think that it brings you closer to God...then more power to ya. For me, all this "spiritual journey" and "sacred mushroom" stuff is just silly...it's a hallucinogenic drug...nothing more. If you say that these visions are "divine" then every other hallucination must be as well.

#26 Guest_pissybee_*

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 12:19 PM

I think we are getting a bit off topic from the original argument about writings about it in the bible....as far as the bible goes...there is no proof in either direction as I stated earlier.
I'm not arguing if they were put here by God or anything of the like. Of course that is impossible to prove in either direction.
The spiritual "visions" people have, IMO, are what i'm saying is bullshit. They are from drugs that cause hallucinations.
hallucinations:
Subjectively experienced sensation in the absence of an actual appropriate stimulus, but which is regarded by the individual as real, although not real.
Hell, I've seen my friend turn into "Swamp Thing" while on Acid (he has a really big vein on his forhead...he turned into swamp thing after i looked at it heheh)....that doesn't mean that he really was....it was a hallucination.
I don't think God wanted me to think my friend was really swamp thing. Religious "visions" fall under the same thing.....has nothing to do with anything...all in your head and caused by the drugs.
If that helps you with your spirituality...then as I said...go for it....but to think that there is anything religious about it is just plain silly to me.....it is an affect that is caused by a drug, nothing more.
If it is a "spiritual message" from God...then I guess God wanted to tell me my friend was really swamp thing too, or that my grass was actually purple, or that my bathroom ceiling was actually 20ft tall.
To think that God is trying to send a message through drug use....to me is just plain archaic in thought. I'm not denying that people have those experiences...just that they are nothing more than hallucinations....nothing real about it. If it helps you, or makes you think that it brings you closer to God...then more power to ya. For me, all this "spiritual journey" and "sacred mushroom" stuff is just silly...it's a hallucinogenic drug...nothing more. If you say that these visions are "divine" then every other hallucination must be as well.

Well, in my case, I have never seen anything like what you describe, nor had a hallucination, for that matter.. I never saw anything that wasn't really there.. On the contrary, I see "reality" as it truely is, on psychedelics, with the bullshit "reality" filters off.. Are you gonna now try and tell me your reality, is more real than mine? In my honest opinion, I think the Catholics told you drugs were wrong, so you have trouble accepting the belief they are given to us by God, for him to communicate with us.. All the miracles and things described in the bible, would have much more meaning to me, personally, if I knew for a fact the disciples WERE on drugs.. The grandiose stories of miracles, would be far more understandable, like listening to a trip report, nowadays, if the disciples explained the drugs/techniques they used, to have these visions... I actually hold more respect for a personal trip experience/report from some real person, than regurgitated stories of mythical people in the bible..

#27 srgtm1a

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:09 PM

Lol, I was born and raised catholic....I am not a catholic, nor do I believe in any organized religion for that matter. So for you to say

"I think the Catholics told you drugs were wrong, so you have trouble accepting the belief they are given to us by God"

is a pretty false statement as well as a scape goat. They didn't brainwash me into thinking anything. While I did have to go to catholic church etc as a kid, drugs and their use was never mentioned, not once...so please re-think your theory. What religion I was, has absolutely Nothing to do with my opinions on it. I am technically a catholic I guess because my parents forced me to go, but obviously since I'm not a part of it anymore, I don't buy into it.

You are saying you never had hallucinations on hallucinogenic drugs? C'mon man.....really. Please explain this "reality" you see that doesn't have hallucinations while on hallucinogenic drugs.

If they were given to us by God then I guess so was paint thinner, which God meant for us to create meth with, wich would then give meth heads "spiritual" experiences, as it often does. Give me a break. That is a pretty weak argument.

I guess guys that have meth labs are actually priests that are doing it for spiritual reasons, not to make money.

You seem to jump from one point to a totally oposite point, and compare apples to oranges in a lot of your argument. IE comparing a sip of wine to hallucinogenic drugs, going from spiritual visions to God putting drugs on earth etc.

#28 Guest_pissybee_*

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:23 PM

Demonize any drug you want, the simple fact is, you cannot prove they aren't sacraments.. Meth isn't made with paint thinner either, if we are arguing semantics.. I think that your belief that drugs are nothing but instruments for getting high, is denying the whole range of things drugs can be used for.. No, I have never seen any weird beings, or people turn into weird things, etc.. What I experience, is maybe trails and perception distortion, which I believe is just the way light actually reflects with the filters of aloneness being removed... I feel at one with everything, which is God, if there is one, to me... The hallucinations you describe are nothing like what I experience, so maybe that is your failure to believe in my God.. Maybe that's why you think differently.. You have to have faith, man.. :p Do you see my point at all? What I wanna know, is what makes your belief any more right or righteous than mine? Is it because you don't feel you need drugs? What is wrong with using drugs to enhance spiritual beliefs? Why do you say it is wrong, and yet offer no proof, that it is.. We can offer opinions, all day on what we feel or believe, but who is right or wrong, is in the heart of the believer..;)

BTW, I think "hallucinogenic" drugs are ones like datura, which cause one to see/believe things that are not actually there, rather than pseudo hallucinations, which are distortions of what IS really there.. The term psychedelic is far more suited for the drugs we are discussing than the term hallucinogenic, IMO..

From web definitions:Psychedelic-
(Literally, "mind-manifesting.’) A drug, such as LSD, mescaline, or psilocybin, that, under appropriate conditions of set and setting, can elicit high states marked by philosophic insights, mystical feelings, visions, and so forth. The term reflects a positive bias toward these drugs, which others have less kindly called "hallucinogens" (hallucination inducers) or "psychotomimetics" (psychosis mimickers).

I like this explanation here: http://en.wikipedia....sychedelic_drug

Is the cup half empty or half full? :p

PERCEPTION!!!

#29 Guest_pissybee_*

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:46 PM

I guess guys that have meth labs are actually priests that are doing it for spiritual reasons, not to make money.
You seem to jump from one point to a totally oposite point, and compare apples to oranges in a lot of your argument. IE comparing a sip of wine to hallucinogenic drugs, going from spiritual visions to God putting drugs on earth etc.

I actually know a meth cook that cooks shit and gives it all away cause he doesn't see how people should be charging for it.. That's his reality.. He doesn't claim to be a priest, though..

As for apples and oranges, you say sipping wine is different from taking a puff of cannabis? What about a puff of tobacco in the native americans religious ceremonies? How do you draw a line, between one drug and another so easily? Is it because of the amount consumed or the exact state of consciousness attained? Either is a weak argument, as there are several religions, recognized by the US government that use sacraments in their rituals, which do get one high, such as the Native American Peyote Church, to name one..

Maybe you should quit calling my arguments faulty and start explaining away the examples I give..

#30 srgtm1a

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:50 PM

Lol...dude, where are you going with this....you are all over the place.

When have I ever "Demonized" drugs in anything that I said? I do and cultivate drugs....lol....nothing bad about doing them at all.....please show me where I have said "drugs are evil, don't do them...not ever". I really fail to see where you are getting your statements from.

You said:

"What is wrong with using drugs to enhance spiritual beliefs? Why do you say it is wrong, and yet offer no proof"

Once again....when did I say it was wrong? Please quote. As far as I can read, I said:

"If it helps you, or makes you think that it brings you closer to God...then more power to ya"

You had said earlier:

"I won't claim my drug use has anything to do with god"

but then in this last post tell me:

"so maybe that is your failure to believe in my God" as a reason as to why I don't agree.

so to answer your other question...NO...I have no idea as to the point you are trying to make is...you are all over the board in what you are saying.

I never once said drugs are bad, I never once said that you can't use them if it helps you spiritually.

I did however say that the "visions" and "spiritual" quests that people speak of are an affect of the drug and not real. If you think it helps you and you think it is real, more power to ya, but to me, it is a silly notion.

I would say we are having a good debate, but I have no clue as to what point you are trying to make....you say one thing, and then contradict it with another. At this point, i have no clue as to what we are arguing about.

#31 cortez

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:58 PM

Drugs is used for over 5000 years.
The oracle of Delphi (Greece) chewed on leaves -used drugs- and that was 500 BC! Some eastern tribes (tharciers, slaves, ...) used drugs to get a fury for an upcomming fight. Of other people like romans, egyptians, gauls we can only guess.
So when you ask - Is there drugs used in the bible?- the answer is: Yes!
It was normal, just like tabac and alcohol is for us.

#32 Guest_pissybee_*

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:00 PM

Lol...dude, where are you going with this....you are all over the place.
When have I ever "Demonized" drugs in anything that I said? I do and cultivate drugs....lol....nothing bad about doing them at all.....please show me where I have said "drugs are evil, don't do them...not ever". I really fail to see where you are getting your statements from.


Saying that anyone that equates drug use with religious experience is silly, is insulting, and perhaps you do not demonize any drugs, but I took the negative connotation about meth, as demonizing, perhaps I am wrong..

"What is wrong with using drugs to enhance spiritual beliefs? Why do you say it is wrong, and yet offer no proof"
Once again....when did I say it was wrong? Please quote. As far as I can read, I said:
"If it helps you, or makes you think that it brings you closer to God...then more power to ya"


But it is silly, correct?

You had said earlier:
"I won't claim my drug use has anything to do with god"
but then in this last post tell me:
"so maybe that is your failure to believe in my God" as a reason as to why I don't agree.
so to answer your other question...NO...I have no idea as to the point you are trying to make is...you are all over the board in what you are saying.
I never once said drugs are bad, I never once said that you can't use them if it helps you spiritually.
I did however say that the "visions" and "spiritual" quests that people speak of are an affect of the drug and not real. If you think it helps you and you think it is real, more power to ya, but to me, it is a silly notion.

My point is not to make an argument as to why my drug use relates to God(maybe a poor attempt at sarcasm), but to explain that you have no right to call anyone silly or whatever, because of their beliefs, because it is insulting.. Also, I don't see how your idea of how "real" an experience is, should have any bearing on how another feels..

#33 Guest_pissybee_*

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:22 PM

If you say that these visions are "divine" then every other hallucination must be as well.

BTW, in my spirituality, everything is divine.. ;)

#34 Hippie3

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 06:23 PM

Try telling the Catholic's their wine sacrament is bullshit, so they can get drunk, see if you don't catch hell..(pun intended) Do you think that is the intention of Catholics, though, using their sacrament to get drunk?
__________________


you were obviously raised by a protestant
not a catholic.
how do i know ?
because the protestants drink the wine,
in catholic churches
only the priest drinks the wine,
not the parishioners/congregation.

#35 Hippie3

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 06:26 PM

The oracle of Delphi (Greece) chewed on leaves


beg your pardon ?
where do you get that ?

#36 Hippie3

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 06:34 PM

you have no right to call anyone silly or whatever, because of their beliefs


perhaps not
but one may certainly criticize the beliefs
if not the person.

i do not agree that criticizing a religion or doctrine should be taboo,
that is the position of the jihadists
who demanded the blood of the danish cartoonists.

we should be able to speak our views on religion/s
even if it offends those who hold different opinions.

while it is rude to say
'you are a fool'
it is another matter to say
'worshipping cannabis is superstitious nonsense'.

#37 Guest_pissybee_*

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 06:56 PM

you were obviously raised by a protestant
not a catholic.
how do i know ?
because the protestants drink the wine,
in catholic churches
only the priest drinks the wine,
not the parishioners.

hehe, honestly, I am not sure which demonination the church was that my mom happened to join when I was a kid.. But I quickly saw how the priest gave her a hard time for not coming to church all the time, and it sure helped me alienate christians.. At a very young age, I found all organized religion a bit far-fetched and unbelievable..

The thing is, I don't really believe any certain substance is THE sacrament.. My belief is one should be allowed to believe whatever they choose, while using whatever "sacrament" they choose, providing it doesn't interfere with the rights of others..

My main problem with this whole thread is people critisizing one substance, while accepting another, regardless of how it's used.. As anyone can probably see from my arguments, I don't adhere to any real set of beliefs, other than what I feel is "right" inside me..

I guess I am just trying to defend the cannabis worshippers, since the wine-drinkers, the peyote users, etc. seem to have established legal religions.. I don't understand why it's okay for one but not another..

The arguments presented by my opponents, seem to allow for further discrimination against one set of beliefs, IMO.. I am just trying to say live and let live, rather than trying to pick apart everyone's belief system..

To be honest, I would have a criticism for any religion that I, myself, didn't create, so I don't choose to denounce another's beliefs, but rather try to defend whichever one is being picked on.. Ya know, rootin for the underdog.. :p

I think if Bush can use the bible to ban gay marriage, I don't see why the cannabis culture cannot use the bible to further their agenda.. And yes, I know, apples and oranges... But is it really?

#38 Hippie3

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 07:01 PM

the points you make
while all valid
still have nothing to do
with the question
'is cannabis/drug use mentioned in the bible ?'

i dug a bit deeper into this issue
and learned that this whole
'kaneh bosm' controversy
is based on a translation of the bible
known as the Septuagint
[meaning 'the 70' for the 70 scholars that allegedly made it].
but the problem is that the Septuagint was made several centuries
after the original hebrew texts and it was written in Greek
and their skills in translating, as well as their source documents,
while the best in their day some ~2200+ years ago,
is considered to be inferior by modern scholarly standards.

It contains many errors, mis-spellings, mistranslations and spurious verses,
including this term 'kaneh bosm'
which is an incorrect rendering of the original hebrew.

what does that mean ?
well, it means that the work of that polish woman who traced the
linguistic relationship between the term 'kaneh bosm' and cannabis
becomes irrelevant
as the expression 'kaneh bosm' does not occur in the original/older hebrew texts
found since the Septuagint was written.

now seems to me that if one wanted to

use the bible to further their agenda

then one had better be sure that one
is not easily proved to be incorrect.
afterall
that is how the bible works for the others,
no one can prove it wrong
so it boils down to opinion.
however
one can prove the claim of cannabis use in the bible
to be incorrect rather quickly.

now if one wants to spread the faith
one cannot be easily shown to be a liar
because if they know you lied to them
then they won't trust your other teachings.

#39 Guest_cap_*

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 07:26 PM

dayum
all this talk about sacrament's givin me a hankerin' for some dankerin :rasta:

#40 chimp

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:00 PM

LMAO:hitit:




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