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12:1 Lighting Cycle


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#1 Myc

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:29 AM

Another discussion here in Grassroots prompted me to separate this information out for study.

It appears as though there is a discussion regarding vegetative photo-period of cannabis.
Some folks have always been in the 24/7 school of thought.
I choose to think of plants as sentient beings (like us - just complex collections of microbes working together). I've never met a single person (who wasn't a speed freak) that didn't like to catch a few ZZZ's every night. This article got me to thinking - thanks Il19 and Bugs.

http://cannabisni.co...our-energy-cost

Energy is really a big deal to me. We have so much of it and we WASTE so much of it every day. Like trying to carry water in a colander. Seems a shame to throw something at a plant that it really doesn't need (and may not even want - and may further benefit from the lack of all the "extra" attention). I look for these relationships. Areas where we can simplify. Why over-complicate?

A simple programmable timer can help sort this out.
The article above describes a light cycle which works like this:

12 hours on
5.5 hours off
1 hour on
5.5 hours off
(Repeat)

Very simple program to write - even if we have to make one of these.

#2 Il19z8rn4li1

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

Look at this guy... :)


I was waiting for someone to make this thread already :) I surely didnt want to do it, people
dont take me seriously heheh


#3 mate0x

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:34 AM

I do 24/7 because it's easy, and the plants seem to stretch a bit less..... but honestly just because it's easy. I also veg under cfl so we don't notice the electrical cost.

I am sure this schedule works, after about 5 hours flowering hormones start to build and then the light kicks on to cease production. ppa is it? I forget off the top of my head.

I can speak on the diminishing flowering light period however... we got it down to like 9 or 10 hours of lights on for flowering. I think it was 9.5 hours. They didn't miss a beat.

Also, I wanted to mention... it would likely be beneficial to "burst" on with cfls, as to not kick your HID's on and off.

Edited by mate0x, 02 March 2013 - 10:41 AM.


#4 mandrax

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:53 AM

Thanks for the link , was a interesting read . Could this be used with auto-flowering strains ? , I know auto plants don't need the switch in light schedule to flower .
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#5 Il19z8rn4li1

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:56 AM

Thanks for the link , was a interesting read . Could this be used with auto-flowering strains ? , I know auto plants don't need the switch in light schedule to flower .


this would be AMAZING for auto flowering plants.


ACtually damn... one can like cut their electricity bill in HALF if they use 12:1 lighting
only grow AUTOS


WOW.... never realized that one lol


#6 Il19z8rn4li1

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:10 AM

I do 24/7 because it's easy, and the plants seem to stretch a bit less..... but honestly just because it's easy. I also veg under cfl so we don't notice the electrical cost.

I am sure this schedule works, after about 5 hours flowering hormones start to build and then the light kicks on to cease production. ppa is it? I forget off the top of my head.

I can speak on the diminishing flowering light period however... we got it down to like 9 or 10 hours of lights on for flowering. I think it was 9.5 hours. They didn't miss a beat.

Also, I wanted to mention... it would likely be beneficial to "burst" on with cfls, as to not kick your HID's on and off.


^^^ Valid point and great contribution.


(damn it sry about the double post.... anyone can merge these if they want, MYC maybe youll
want a clean house? lol )


YES


:) I Got more to add... BUT im in a rush this morning so gonna have to post this.


Well my good buddy Mate0x spent some time looking for an OLD post I
made talking about 12:1 lighting about a year ago or so.

Heres link
https://mycotopia.ne...tml#post1140073


But i quoted what I said here ;)






SIDE NOTE...
For Cannabis plants... its detrimental to run them at 24 hours LIGHT on for VEG...
You need a break for them. When people refer to "THE STRETCH" when they switch the plants
over to FLOWER stage, they are getting the STRETCH because the plants are LIGHT HUNGRY and
are pretty much STARVING SEARCHING for light.

I know this from years of experience and personal TESTING of different lighting schedules

and its kinda common sense if your passion is GROWING PLANTS ;-)

I personally use 2 different types of lighting schedules.

First one is a simple....
4 on
4 off
4 on
4 off
4 on
4 off..... repeat


Second one, my new favorite because of the IMMENSE savings in electricity :-D
The famous 12-1 schedule.
This schedules is a little more complex but has the BEST results when vegging Cannabis plants.

its goes...

First 12 hours of the schedules is as follows. I gotta warn.. it def a crazy schedule lol


30min on Hour 1
30min off


30
min on Hour 2
30min off

30
min on Hour 3
30min off

30
min on Hour 4
30min off

30
min on Hour 5
30min off

30
min on Hour 6
30min off

30
min on Hour 7
30min off

30
min on Hour 8
30min off

30
min on Hour 9
30min off

30
min on Hour 10
30min off

30
min on Hour 11
30
min off

30
min on Hour 12
30
min off

5.5hous off Hours 13 - 17.5

30min On Last 30mins of hour 17 (THIS 30min is KEY... it interrupts the photo-period)

6hours off Hours 19 - 24

(this above schedule with all the 30mins on/off, they CAN
be changed to 15mins ON / 45mins OFF, I have tested this with SAME results as
the half and half, just thought id mention her)





For Flowering my schedule is

11hours ON 13hours OFF = first 4 weeks.
10.5hours ON 13.5hours OFF = 5th week
10hours ON 14hours OFF = 6th week
9.5hours ON 14.5hours OFF = 7th week
9hours ON 15hours OFF = 8th week
^^^^ It works AMAZING!!!!

Those are the 2 lighting schedules i use, they BOTH work just as good as the other, and
WAY WAY WAY better then 24 hours lights on..

I always feel so bad for peoples' plants when i see they use 24 hour lights on... or even 18-6,
if your INSIST on doing that... at least do 17-7....

I will have to say though, if you dont understand Plant photo periods.... you will not understand
either of my lighting schedules and will be hard for you to accept them.
Ill also add... that ALL COMMERCIAL greenhouses that grow FLOWERS use the 12-1 lighting schedule...
They dont need to run all that light when your plants are not even using it all... and your most likely
doing MORE HARM then good.

Before anyone tries to talk again my schedules, I ask you to do some research yourself
BEFORE you try and challenge me ;-) Learn about photo periods first, then say something.

the advantages of using EITHER of these lighting schedules are
-A naturally VERY TIGHT node spacing....
-More efficient
-Plant enter into FLOWERING stage MUCH MUCH MUCH quicker WITHOUT STRESS.
-You cut at least 1 week off of your flowering time.
-If you dont chop your plants 1 week earlier, youll notice that your plants will have MUCH larger
yields...

If you wanna grow Marijuana... or ANY PLANT for that matter, why wouldnt you want to do it how mother
nature does with merely a little ASSISTANCE from you, and not so much CONTROLLING whats NATURAL.
Dont let the "Clear skies and sunny" ALL THE TIME saying fool/trick you, mj performs better WITHOUT
that, as so does EVERY single other plant on this planet.


(Old school growers do what they do.... some are stubborn... look at the greenhouse industry ;-D They
know their shit for a reason, they are doing it for MONEY... if you got a greenhouse to grow flowers,
you gotta do it right)


cheers my friend.



#7 Foster

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:34 PM

Hmmm. Definitely something to think about. Read the article and the comments and it seems many agree it works.

mateOx--- I believe the chemical you were referring to is phytochrome.

I have seen many times how plants will stretch in the dark hrs. Like once leaving the lights off for 2 days prior to 12/12 to try to quicken up fruit set. Plants almost doubled in size, stretching and getting gangly and lanky.

That's where one of my concerns lies in this method for veg. From what I read, it reduces stretch correct? Is that because they have been pre-prepared for dark cycle time, or because you are giving them 50% less light time needed for photosynthesis to produce that growth?

The other is plants with hermie tendencies. Of which I have a couple. With one, I have seen time and time again that any deviation from 12/12- 11/13 will cause pollen.

Now many will say those plants aren't worth keeping. But I guarantee these are. Maybe I have a contradiction to the standard plants with hermie traits. Maybe I shouldn't say hermie traits as these are both 100% true females. Only expressing hermie traits when stressed by tweaking lights or temps above 95ºf. But when it's one of the most potent varieties you've ever had, consistently gets you over 90% true female seed, over 15 yrs, as needed, by tweaking the lights. Its a keeper.

Now back to the light cycle. I have a digital timer that will handle the task but I think I'll wait to see what results some of ya'll come up with before diving in head first myself.

#8 bugs

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:29 PM

Interesting stuff! Who would'a thunk?

#9 Foster

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:29 PM

Thinking more n more about giving this a try myc. I see it's more about the energy savings. I'm all about efficiency.

Also agree with mateOx about the 1 hr "burst". Seems it would be most beneficial with CFL's.

Fme, HID bulb failure occurs most often at start-up, rather than while in use (except physical damage). The more starts, the less life span, from what I understand.

CFL's being so inexpensive, with such low energy consumption, they'd seem to fit right in there.

#10 Myc

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:36 AM

An experiment was begun. Plants seem to be doing fine. Nobody has gone toes-up yet.

I was interested in the stress (or lack thereof). One of the cultivars enjoying this new light cycle has a tendency to go hermaphroditic. I'm interested to see what this lighting cycle does to that particular strain. Mandala seeds - Ganesh - regular seeds (not feminised).

There are also some rooting clones under this light cycle.
Will give this a few weeks and report back over time with regards to stress and cloning.

It should also be mentioned here - only the flower cycle uses HID lighting
The vegetative cabinet is (3) 2-lamp,4ft t8 HO, lamps @6500K - these flourescent fixtures require no warm-up period so on and off is no problem. A simple timer was inserted into the control circuit for timed operation.

To describe the problem experienced by HID users in their cabinets:
Turning your HID light on and off for a single one-hour cycle is a bit wasteful. It takes approximately 15-20 minutes for the lamp to achieve proper operating temperature - lotsa energy used in this process. Then it gets shut off after roughly 40 mins of operation.
The suggestion here is to provide a 120v flourescent lighting array. The flourescent array can "burst" or turn on for a short period of time without detriment to the lights themselves - they are designed for on-demand (on and off) operation.

Said another way:
Fella uses 400w HID for vegetation so here's the cycle:

12 hours during the day - 400w HID "on"
5.5 hours off cycle - no lights
1 hour burst cycle - (cfl's or other flourescent) "on"
5.5 hours off cycle - no lights
12 hours during the day - 400w HID "on"

Edited by Myc, 04 March 2013 - 10:47 AM.


#11 Il19z8rn4li1

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:53 AM

nice Myc :)


#12 cheetolay

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:04 AM

I did this for quite some time, while keeping mothers and vegging clones. I got the idea from SKUNK mag. I'm working with newly created genetics and fishing for a mother right now, so I dont have any pix currently, I might try to dig up some old pix I have of some past genetics I used to carry...........found one

These were a couple different strains (mothers and clones) and some coleus snuck in there too, in the above mentioned light cycle

crazy light cycle.jpg

Edited by cheetolay, 04 March 2013 - 11:42 AM.


#13 Polyarcturus

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:33 AM

some strains will flower on thru. hell ive got one strain in a perpetual state of flowering, lights are on 24/7 if i even run 18 hours it will start to flower. ive always wanted to use this schedule to veg. but ive had problems with it.and

like i said ive had problems at 18 and 20 so i pretty much just leave the lights on.

#14 Phaeton

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:38 AM

I don't start my own threads cause I get lost in the detail.
This is merely a short reply about 12/1 lighting, TMI but I don't know any other way.

first test was indica/sativa 50/50 from a local breeder. Side by sides gave a bit shorter and thicker branched plants with 12/1. They also showed bud sooner when put on 12/12.

second test was a sativa culled from 200 mexican seeds. The side by side also gave shorter plants, but not so much. Same earlier buds with 12/12.

third test was Northern Lights, moving up to plants with a name, this one was a 90's clone. Side by side had this plant way shorter, being short to start with it was way short. Cut the blue to 5% and that helped, but the shorter plant and closer branches was definitely a trend.

fourth try was not tested, but was another move up, local guy had a Papaya the book called 95% indica but this was a fast growing tall plant. It did test out to 4% more THC so it got the primo spot.
The 12/1 did not fare as well. The plants really bushed, as in all the branches were from the first 1/2".
6 branches, except more like 6 stems from a rootball, no main stem. Blue was again reduced but this time it caused the leaves to lose their serrations and go from narrow to rounded.

Total surprise after three out of three being wonderful. Another reason for this strain over others with the same THC level is the lemonene genetics. This is the first of that strain to be grown.
On a side note, the Papaya does not respond to UVB and the first three did, something is different geneticly.

Long winded way to say:

12/1 vegging seems to work on most strains, three out of three tested did well enough the fourth was tossed in without prior testing, my bad.

I still recommend it, when it works it works.

Edited by Phaeton, 05 March 2013 - 01:43 AM.
typo


#15 stonestare

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:42 PM

I do not have the knowledge to so this not into electronics. Why can't you with an electronic package dim the lights using voltage. Instead of turning on 10K of lights why not ramp it up and down as we know sunrise and sunset? I know timers are out there but that just off and on, if it was electronic you would not have to mess with it.

#16 Myc

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:43 PM

I do not have the knowledge to so this not into electronics. Why can't you with an electronic package dim the lights using voltage. Instead of turning on 10K of lights why not ramp it up and down as we know sunrise and sunset? I know timers are out there but that just off and on, if it was electronic you would not have to mess with it.


I'm not seeing it.
The issue at hand here is light duration - not really timer control. Electronics are simply one way to address the issue. However, the timer already exists - no need to re-invent the wheel.

"Ramping-up and Ramping-down" is an intelligent strategy. Mimic nature. That's what we try to do with Microbes - the base of all life. You and I are sentient collections of microbes. An energy created by BILLIONS of bugs - thinking in unison - and fooled as to our purpose (but that's another thread).
However, employing this variable technology is much more difficult to employ than you realize - dimming ballasts + dimming lamps = very expensive when adhering to plant horticulture parameters. Why bother when the less-detailed methods suffice?
It can be done - no sweat
How much do you have to spend? $$$$

#17 stonestare

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:44 PM

Myc you are very true. I do not know what it would cost to do it but I know hortilux is not giving freebies away, the thought of a dimmable bulb would be pricey.I am up aginst the wall, I have been making changes to the way I grow but if I am going to push then I need to go to LST. So I have time to figure that part out but trying to mimic nature is never easy to do

#18 Dipole

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:32 AM

It is amazing how much variation there can be. I am growing a female indica dominant that shows no sign of hermi. Grown under the gluttonous 18/6 to 12/12 indoor, in a poorly lighted window, and outdoors with a jacked up light schedule. Three other females got well pollenated so I don't know. The 2 males of the same seed batch hermied toward the end of flowering. This made my cannabis loving mind wonder if the hermi trait is a floating window. Make the strain female stable and the male hermies, perhaps this works the other way around too. Females that hermi have males that do not, as cases in the extreme.

#19 Polyarcturus

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:40 AM

It is amazing how much variation there can be. I am growing a female indica dominant that shows no sign of hermi. Grown under the gluttonous 18/6 to 12/12 indoor, in a poorly lighted window, and outdoors with a jacked up light schedule. Three other females got well pollenated so I don't know. The 2 males of the same seed batch hermied toward the end of flowering. This made my cannabis loving mind wonder if the hermi trait is a floating window. Make the strain female stable and the male hermies, perhaps this works the other way around too. Females that hermi have males that do not, as cases in the extreme.



males dont herm or at least without being a mutant, and having an extra chromosome. nor do female herms produce xy pollen under normal circumstances. the males that hermed at the end of flower did you use them to produce offspring? more than likely those generations (if those where males and not female herms, just flowering as males.) will have a predisposition to be mutants. i am working with this factor trying to create a breed of triploids.

if it was females then you should have got an extremely high ratio of female prodigy's.

#20 cheetolay

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:21 AM

I find that any plant can go hermie given enough stress.

I wanted to also comment on the light that I was using in the above pic. It's a 400 watt MH pulse start. Its a big old fucker with its own built in ballast. Weighs prolly about 40-50lbs. And still kickin after a couple years of the 12:1 light cycle. (same bulb too, but prolly time to change it out).

@stonestare- T5's and cfl's are pretty cheap lights and also cheap to run, it would be even cheaper to run em the 12:1 cycle. I find (before I invested in HID lighting) that 2 4' T5's were enough to keep 1 mother and several clones in pretty good shape.




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