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What causes pins to appear?


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#21 pgmr

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 08:18 PM

Yeah there are six other jars just finishing colonization right now! I wont give up that easily, I just love doing this. Im happy. Tho, because they werent contams. My only fault was impatience, and not fAulty procedures.
Also @technician, I checked the link... Information is for Agaricus bispora only, and I didnt see any information regarding CO2 and primordia formation... Thanks for the link, tho, it has some cool info on other aspects like substrate maintenance.

#22 TVCasualty

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:08 AM

Pgmr, when you was given the advice to increase FAE it was because you had fluffy mycel growth witch is a sign of high CO2.


My understanding is that aerial mycelium is a sign of high rH (not necessarily too high, just somewhere above 90%). No matter the CO2 level, mycelium won't grow off the surface of a substrate into dry air (<~80%). In the case of most home growers, this would also usually occur in conjunction with high CO2 as most people don't build complex automated FAE systems so they either end up with air that's a little too dry (but very fresh) or air with 90+% rH but is a little stagnant.

It's FAR better to err on the side of too dry but fresh air IME. While the mycelium by itself can handle high CO2 and high rH, those conditions also encourage contamination since the oxygen introduced by FAE gives the mycelium what it needs but just as importantly it inhibits most contaminants. If we could grow cubensis in a truly 100% sterile environment we could get away with a very low rate of fresh air exchange while keeping rH at 100% (but since we don't, we can't with the exception of the invitro/neglect tek).

But if you build a FAE system that provides at least a couple of complete air exchanges per hour, 24 hours a day then you can keep the tubs at 99-100% rH constantly and not increase contam rates. In those conditions the whole surface tends to go aerial (gets real fuzzy). Unfortunately this kind of setup usually makes the entire grow room real humid since treated air passes through the FC once and then vents into the room.

A closed-loop automated system is exponentially more difficult to build than a fan with a humidifier blowing fog through a bin. High rH in the grow room leads to potential mold problems if it's not dehumidified but dehumidification dries out tubs faster so more humidity needs to be pumped into the bins and so on. It's a tougher balance to maintain than it seems as most problems build up slowly over multiple grows until the place suddenly "crashes" and nearly every substrate contaminates before it fruits. I've read threads from lot of growers who say things like "...but doing it this way always used to work!" And until they deep-clean the whole building whether it's a house or a shed (sometimes up to and including re-painting the grow room) they'll keep getting poor results.


I would guess that there are many different combinations of the relevant factors that are capable of triggering pinning. Most of us have seen BRF jars start to pin before the BRF is fully colonized, and that's happening in a context of high-CO2, high-rH, some light, and minimal oxygen. Bulk substrates are generally fruited under conditions of relatively low CO2, higher oxygen, low to medium rH (80-85%), lots of light, and only after being fully colonized. As long as each variable is within certain limits the substrate will pin, but the wide variability is nice in that it means mycelium really wants to fruit and will if it can. The tricky part is that as each variable approaches a limit, it would likely affect the limits of the other variables; the closer the air temperature is to the max a given species can handle (for example), the higher the minimum FAE it needs.

I would almost say that the more important question would be "What are we doing to them that prevents them from pinning?" since leaving them completely alone (often after tossing them outside in a pile on the ground, or even in a trashbag) often results in impressive fruitings while dedicated and doting beginners often "love" their grows to death until they learn to back off and let them do their thing.

Edited by TVCasualty, 01 August 2013 - 08:24 AM.
one more thing...


#23 Uncle G

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:13 PM

Indeed it was.
Patience is a learned behavior, IME.
You are now learning.:teeth:


BTW, if you haven't yet,
get some more jars goin'.
The learning curve isn't so steep,
if you keep at it.:thumbup:


Thats good dope right there


BY TV

My understanding is that aerial mycelium is a sign of high rH (not necessarily too high, just somewhere above 90%). No matter the CO2 level, mycelium won't grow off the surface of a substrate into dry air (<~80%).


:heartbeat That is some more good dope.

#24 Ilia

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:12 PM

There are different fruiting triggers for different species, but for cubensis the strong ones are:

Evaporation of moisture from substrate
Paired with sufficient moisture


I left only the bits I want to highlight on. Those factors are the ones I see left out of many grows and it causes waiting times of over a week. When pins finally do appear they are few in number - very far from reaching potential biological efficiency allowed by the genetics.
Water water and surface evaporation. I keep the mycelium wet and happy and fan water off the surface - water which I first put there in order to get lots of pins soon. Then i keep the cakes moist during fruiting so the mushies have enough to grow.

#25 pgmr

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 05:40 PM

My understanding is that aerial mycelium is a sign of high rH (not necessarily too high, just somewhere above 90%). No matter the CO2 level, mycelium won't grow off the surface of a substrate into dry air (<~80%). In the case of most home growers, this would also usually occur in conjunction with high CO2 as most people don't build complex automated FAE systems so they either end up with air that's a little too dry (but very fresh) or air with 90+% rH but is a little stagnant.

It's FAR better to err on the side of too dry but fresh air IME. While the mycelium by itself can handle high CO2 and high rH, those conditions also encourage contamination since the oxygen introduced by FAE gives the mycelium what it needs but just as importantly it inhibits most contaminants. If we could grow cubensis in a truly 100% sterile environment we could get away with a very low rate of fresh air exchange while keeping rH at 100% (but since we don't, we can't with the exception of the invitro/neglect tek).

But if you build a FAE system that provides at least a couple of complete air exchanges per hour, 24 hours a day then you can keep the tubs at 99-100% rH constantly and not increase contam rates. In those conditions the whole surface tends to go aerial (gets real fuzzy). Unfortunately this kind of setup usually makes the entire grow room real humid since treated air passes through the FC once and then vents into the room.

A closed-loop automated system is exponentially more difficult to build than a fan with a humidifier blowing fog through a bin. High rH in the grow room leads to potential mold problems if it's not dehumidified but dehumidification dries out tubs faster so more humidity needs to be pumped into the bins and so on. It's a tougher balance to maintain than it seems as most problems build up slowly over multiple grows until the place suddenly "crashes" and nearly every substrate contaminates before it fruits. I've read threads from lot of growers who say things like "...but doing it this way always used to work!" And until they deep-clean the whole building whether it's a house or a shed (sometimes up to and including re-painting the grow room) they'll keep getting poor results.


I would guess that there are many different combinations of the relevant factors that are capable of triggering pinning. Most of us have seen BRF jars start to pin before the BRF is fully colonized, and that's happening in a context of high-CO2, high-rH, some light, and minimal oxygen. Bulk substrates are generally fruited under conditions of relatively low CO2, higher oxygen, low to medium rH (80-85%), lots of light, and only after being fully colonized. As long as each variable is within certain limits the substrate will pin, but the wide variability is nice in that it means mycelium really wants to fruit and will if it can. The tricky part is that as each variable approaches a limit, it would likely affect the limits of the other variables; the closer the air temperature is to the max a given species can handle (for example), the higher the minimum FAE it needs.

I would almost say that the more important question would be "What are we doing to them that prevents them from pinning?" since leaving them completely alone (often after tossing them outside in a pile on the ground, or even in a trashbag) often results in impressive fruitings while dedicated and doting beginners often "love" their grows to death until they learn to back off and let them do their thing.


@TVCasualty , you rock. Thanks for the elaborated answer, I think we are all to benefit from this piece of wisdom.
And yeah, my cakes were recently victims of overloving.
I think this thread is nice because I just asked about a phenomenom that we all just see happening without even trying, yet trying to explain it generates different answers and thoughts, including "we don't know" and "it's complicated".
I think it's time to do some experiments...

#26 stmhunter

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:15 PM

Magic!

#27 Luckyloser

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:41 PM

Magic!


Best answer yet!




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