Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 5 votes

Cold fermentation: An alternative for heat straw pasteurization


  • Please log in to reply
180 replies to this topic

#41 Seeker2be

Seeker2be

    Seeking Lost Horizons

  • OG VIP
  • 1,357 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:49 AM

Thanks cycle you typed as I was posting and that is what I thought about the anaerobes.  If the bag was vacuum sealed and even if it filled with I would bet the anaerobes would have already done their job and consumed the aerobes or killed them with co2 or other gas suffication thus cold pasteurization.  One could assume, and I will do so by experiment that the straw could be used after opening the bag and aerating. No?



#42 roscoe

roscoe

    Not a mycologist.

  • OG VIP
  • 2,847 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:55 AM

 

I am not sure but aren't some of the primery bacterial organisms that Sandor Katz describes in his book Wild Fermentation perhaps anaerobes?

 

From what I remember the only organisms he talked about that were aerobes were the molds that you would scrape away, acetobacter which turns alcohol into vinegar in the presences of oxygen, and some of the organisms you might find in a kombucha ferment.

 

 

I would bet the anaerobes would have already done their job and consumed the aerobes or killed them with co2 or other gas suffication thus cold pasteurization.

 

I think they do most of their killing by lowering the pH via lactic acid which is their waste product.

 

For anyone wondering who Sando Katz is or the book (highly recommended) we keep referencing:

 

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Sandor_Katz


Edited by cyclenaut, 16 February 2014 - 11:01 AM.

  • MrGumball likes this

#43 Cue

Cue

    Chat Head

  • OG VIP
  • 8,306 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:59 AM

 

 

I don't like that idea, due to anaerobic bacteria. You really want bacteria that likes oxygen.

 

Actually the bacteria that we are after here are in the genus Lactobacillus which are anaerobes.  Which means they will thrive in an oxygen free environment.

 

As a result of their metabolic process Lactobacillus produce large amounts of CO2, so the bag would have to be able to expand and not become so full it pops. 

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Lactobacillus

"The resulting mix of salt and lactic acid is a hostile environment for other microbes, such as fungi,"

 

Lactic acid comes from this bacteria.

Now don't get me wrong I realized that the salt has something to with it too.



#44 roscoe

roscoe

    Not a mycologist.

  • OG VIP
  • 2,847 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:04 AM

The salt is not necessary to the process, but it does give the Lactobicillus a head start.

 

It also helps the vegetables to keep some of their crunch if you plan on keeping that particular ferment around for a while.  The same can be achieved by adding a tannin rich food such as, rasins, tea bag, grape leaves, ect.


Edited by cyclenaut, 16 February 2014 - 11:07 AM.


#45 Cue

Cue

    Chat Head

  • OG VIP
  • 8,306 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:13 AM

OK after reading some posts that came up after my last posts I think I'm starting to grasp the concepts.

Later I'll go back and read that link.

This really falls in line with what I've been studying lately.



#46 Seeker2be

Seeker2be

    Seeking Lost Horizons

  • OG VIP
  • 1,357 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 16 February 2014 - 07:15 PM

I was thinking about why the plastic bag variation of the tek might not work.  I believe that the anaerobic bacteria would produce a lot of acetic acid and other acids. That would make it difficult to adjust PH of the substrate.  In the rain barrel this is diluted by the quantity of water flushing the inside and outside the hay instead of in a stagnant plastic bag .  This may not be true but when I return home next week I will test the limited space plastic bag method and check the pH of it and the rain barrel method for comparison as best I can.


  • Erkee likes this

#47 invisibilitysyndrome

invisibilitysyndrome

    SEE?

  • OG VIP
  • 1,331 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:44 PM

I was thinking about why the plastic bag variation of the tek might not work.  I believe that the anaerobic bacteria would produce a lot of acetic acid and other acids. That would make it difficult to adjust PH of the substrate.  In the rain barrel this is diluted by the quantity of water flushing the inside and outside the hay instead of in a stagnant plastic bag .  This may not be true but when I return home next week I will test the limited space plastic bag method and check the pH of it and the rain barrel method for comparison as best I can.


deff watching this.

#48 Seeker2be

Seeker2be

    Seeking Lost Horizons

  • OG VIP
  • 1,357 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:27 PM

Side to Cold Fermentation Experience.  The second one straw revolution:  While awaiting my blue oysters and cubes to fruit with tek I thought of a mini cold fermentation experiment.  Straw in 1 gallon baggie with water for 7 days air sucked out with a drinking straw. We shall see

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_2975.JPG


#49 VoodooGarden

VoodooGarden

    Enthusiast

  • Free Member
  • 544 posts

Posted 04 March 2014 - 09:54 PM

Bump. Anything happening?

#50 Seeker2be

Seeker2be

    Seeking Lost Horizons

  • OG VIP
  • 1,357 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:16 AM

What's happening is this: The blue oyster is fully colonized and am waiting for fruiting . The Cam cube is colonized and hopefully fruiting soon.  I had some arears of trich but am dealing with it by a method I will describe if it works.  I did not unfortunately do what hyphae had suggested before I started the process of cold pasteurization.  I left the straw too long and that lead to some contamination which did not happen with the blue oysters since I surmise that their antibacterial, antifungal chemicals are different from those of the cubes.  I am also learning that the ratio of spawn to straw must be higher for faster colonization and thus to avoid contams.  Not all experiments are successful and I am learning.  I have started a mini baggie tek cold pasturization with a gallon bag sealed except for a small airport with straw immersed in water for a week (cut in 1 inch pieces)  I used a lot better ratio spawn to straw this time on a smaller scale.  Pictures pending success or failure.  I am honing this tek and we shall see.  Seeker2be


Edited by Seeker2be, 05 March 2014 - 12:19 AM.


#51 Cue

Cue

    Chat Head

  • OG VIP
  • 8,306 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:45 AM

( I hope this is on topic)

I think that I posted to this thread that I planned on soaking cracked corn in pickling lime to increase its nutritional value.

http://www.culturesf...kling-lime.html

Anyway I think I promised to post my results so here they are.

 

The plan was to soak for it couple of days. Well work got crazy and couple of days turned into a few weeks. I inoculated 54 quarts and nothing grew. Of course it may have been a pH issue, but the pickling lime works fine with WBS.



#52 Erkee

Erkee

    Trolls'R'us

  • Expired Member
  • 1,477 posts

Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:49 AM

i once added too much ash (caustic like lime), verrry slow and tight/short/small growth.

even neglect-tek did't help. lol.



#53 Seeker2be

Seeker2be

    Seeking Lost Horizons

  • OG VIP
  • 1,357 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:32 AM

I am measuring the PH today.  Thanks for the reminder Cue.



#54 Seeker2be

Seeker2be

    Seeking Lost Horizons

  • OG VIP
  • 1,357 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:17 AM

End product PH after cold fermentation of straw 7

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_3115.JPG


#55 coorsmikey

coorsmikey

    Hippiecritical

  • App Administrator
  • 6,791 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 09 March 2014 - 06:30 PM

So how has the bag done besides a neutral PH? Any progress? Did nocup the straw that ya cold pasterized in the ziplock? Defintely a good thread? There a lot of people watching this wondering?



#56 Seeker2be

Seeker2be

    Seeking Lost Horizons

  • OG VIP
  • 1,357 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 09 March 2014 - 06:42 PM

I am away from home at the moment.  Will be back tomorrow night.  My first experiment in the white boxes (pictures pending) showed contams in the blue oyster box but I will check them tomorrow.  The box with the cam cubes got the green trich but from failures comes the realization that I must change things. I haven't seen the 2nd try with the small bag for a week but did case those cubes before I left.  They colonized faster with less straw. What I have learned so far:  If this tek actually works one must cut the straw to one inch and keep the ratios of straw to spawn down so that colonization can outstrip any potential contams with their antibiotic, antifungal and antiviral chems.  I believe in the first experiment I didn't cut the straw short enough and had way too much straw to spawn but I will keep trying and see,  perhaps a diluted bleach deep of the straw before adding spawn may be another option.  I will do both technique variations with the next batch.   I want it to work but if it doesn't we all will have learned what doesn't work.....Thanks for bearing with me.  Mycelium grow slow in the winter and I am very impatient to find out the truth of the tek.



#57 coorsmikey

coorsmikey

    Hippiecritical

  • App Administrator
  • 6,791 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 09 March 2014 - 08:18 PM

Good thread! Maybe onefor the vaults? Thanks for all the efforts and inspiration. Keep us updated please? For me this has inspired me to add. There are all these teks out there that use bleach and lime, or another alkaline, using pretty much the same process, but what is actually doing the work? The alkalines or is just this process alone doing the work of pasteurizing? Maybe we have been doing this with lime and bleach all along and just speeding up the process. I am gonna give this a go right along side of normal pasteurization and noc up side by side with the same perimeters. The only thing that is a drawback for me is that it only take a few hous to pasteurize large batch of straw versus a week with the cold tek. But one advantage I see is you could soak your straw at same time as you noc up a few quarts of LC. Then you noc up the straw with the LC and call it the one week bulk neglect tek!

#58 Seeker2be

Seeker2be

    Seeking Lost Horizons

  • OG VIP
  • 1,357 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 09 March 2014 - 08:42 PM

Thanks Coors:  I believe the process we want is to give the mycelium we want a better chance than all the other competing contams have until our mycelium can establish all the zones of inhibition and rule the substrate.   Our additional goal is consume less energy and diminish effort and mess.  If that means planning ahead we all do that anyway.  I will keep you posted.  I am on it and will do it 10 times if necessary with variations to prove if it  works or not.


Edited by Seeker2be, 09 March 2014 - 08:46 PM.

  • twoguysupnorth likes this

#59 coorsmikey

coorsmikey

    Hippiecritical

  • App Administrator
  • 6,791 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 09 March 2014 - 08:46 PM

Well said Seeker! I will jump on in and add anything I can on the matter!

#60 Seeker2be

Seeker2be

    Seeking Lost Horizons

  • OG VIP
  • 1,357 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 09 March 2014 - 08:47 PM

This is a group effort and I appreciate any and all critiques to move us all forward.  RULE the Substrate my prettys!!!!!






Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!