462 replies to this topic

[BlackPeter17]

I was really hoping to get some good conversations going about climate change and such over here but it seems there is no interest. I'm not sure if there are limited members here, if I'm posting in the wrong sections? I figured this community would have a lot more to say on the subject matter - also figured psychoactives would be a door opener for idea development in a growing industry. ::shrug::

Edited by hyphaenation, 14 April 2014 - 05:47 PM.

[Skywatcher]

I'm usually one to chime in on climate change. I have not seen the posts you refer to, which forum are you posting them in?

[BlackPeter17]

Show me to where we can strike up a communal discussion please! And a special thanks on the eclipse tip SW!

Did u catch The new IPCC reports that just came out?

[dial8]

I think I saw the thread. I for one don't comment on those things often because I feel (just my opinion) it's been talked to death. Now you may say "how can we progress without discussion?". Here are my feelings...climate change is happening. It has always happened from the beginning of time. Are we (people) speeding up climate change? Maybe...maybe not. Is there anything we can do about it? Not with the current state of our knowledge and technology. Discussions like this typically lead to arguments that seem to be completely pointless because neither side can prove anything beyond a doubt so the arguments just spin out of control without any conclusions. More green solutions...maybe, but most of those companies go belly up pretty quick, wind farms now have a problem killing birds (lol). I laugh because the promise of a new world leads to destruction too. Have you actually seen any literature detailing how harmful, to the environment, the making of batteries for electric cars really is? There is never going to be a clean and easy solution. There was once a conversation regarding global warming and new ways of farming which would be more environmentally friendly but produce a whole lot less food. This of course would lead to a population drop. A drop in population would certainly help but who will be the judge to decide who gets the food or not. Being a father I see that type of decision as basically impossible. Take my food and I'm going to take you out and then eat your food. You know that kind of mentality. That type of population control/decline would lead to mass chaos. Not really an option for me but I do know that some people like that thought. They like that thought until it reaches out and takes their life or those they love...then it's not such a good idea.

All species do there best to multiply and rearrange their environment to best suit their needs. I don't think we are that much different. Those instinctual drives are very hard to overcome.

That is my take on why I do not respond to those types of discussions. There are plenty of other people on here that feel quite a bit different than I do so maybe if the conversation is started up again you might get some hits. I know my answer was long winded. I know my answer was actually a response to a discussion I usually don't respond to which at best is a little hypocritical and paradoxical but since you were disappointed I felt I needed to let you know the reason why. It's funny that my answer to why I don't post to these discussions is actually a very valid post to the discussion.

Edited by dial8, 10 April 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[BlackPeter17]

Indeed some great stuff in there d8. I'd like to take the time and throughly read your response. I appreciate any response especially if at minimum we can discuss it. Give me a moment to reflect please.

[Juthro]

I tend to agree with Dial8 in that I try to shy away from subjects that often turn into debate’s, that then turn to bickering.  That doesn’t mean that I don’t think it’s a good subject for discussion though, I just think it tends to turn heated (pun intended).

 

I would suggest to anyone that thinks global warming is not happening to visit Portage Glacier and Lake in Whittier, and to hike up to see Exit Glacier outside of Seward.   

 

Like many of the glaciers here in Alaska (and the rest of the world for that matter) these two are retreating at amazing rates.   These two are just easier to get to and see then most.  While I can’t tell you for sure the global dynamics that are causing their rapid retreat, I can say it doesn’t take more than a look to see it is happening.   Come and see them for yourself, it is pretty difficult to deny that it is happening.  But don’t forget your camera, because even if you are not convinced you will not be sorry that you came.

 

Hell, anyone decides to come and look, I’ll buy us lunch and beer, lol. 

 

 

[dial8]

Good post, Juthro. Yeah Banff National Park has some pretty dramatic glacier melting as well as Glacier National Park. There is no question that they are indeed melting. Damnit! I've been sucked into the conversation! lmao...arg!

[BlackPeter17]

I would like anybody willing to take a look at the 2014 IPCC reports if I need to post a link I will later. I would not want to argue with anybody, and value any bodies opinions. I have access to great links for climate models for anybody who would like to play with them.

I would also like to state that in the 2007 IPCC report they reported that humans causing accelerated climate warming from burning fossil fuels is no longer debatable amung the scientific community. But check out the 2014 reports guys I'm telling you. The answers to all the questions are pretty much there.

I don't want to argue I want to take the chance to discuss a serious subject with people of a like minded community and share with anybody will to take the time out of theirs lives to invest age for themselves.

I'd actually preferre to have a conversation with people who don't understand what's happening because I understand why there is still confusion.

Peace! Love! Happiness! Positive energy and willness to listen to others opinions to develope a better understanding of each other!

Edited by Direwolf13, 10 April 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[BlackPeter17]

Ribbit!

[MrGumball]

Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis

 

Climate Change 2014: Impacts, Adaptation, and Vulnerability

[Skywatcher]

Always supply a link if you can Direwolf. I will not read the report in it's entirety, as summarized conclusions are enough for me personally. Any who wish may use this link for the full report.

 

http://ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/

 

Juthro, I worked in the Anchorage area every summer from 1996-2008. I made sure to make the short trip to Portage Glacier every year. What I saw during those years was a undeniable further retreat every year. Now that the melting and retreat of glaciers all over the world is escalating, I expect it is not even visible from many of the locations I went to.

 

That we are now experiencing climate change is undeniable. That the Earth has experienced previous major climate change's is undeniable. Where this all gets muddy is when when we try to predict to what extent the results of our escalating current global "eco-load" will have on this climate re-adjustment process in long term time frames. We can see and measure what the results are now, and that levels are increasing at unprecedented rates, but having no previous precedent in our geologic history to refer to, there are many factors of unpredictability as multiple ecosystems crash, effecting and creating additional system changes in unexpected ways. For example, we know as the glacial ice packs melt, sea levels will rise, albido goes down, and faster increases in temperature rise result. What is more difficult to predict is exactly the way the massive influx of freshwater will impact ocean currents and sealife.

 

It is my opinion that this is all a "Butterfly Effect", and we cannot accurately know what will do what in an effort to re-balance, and I find this frightening that we may have already hit a tipping point that is escalating out whether we act now or not.

 

The more difficult part of this is that we do not have a workable solution, or plan of action, that can be put in place now on a global scale. Every step we make to positively impact this progression, has repercussions, not always the ones we wanted or expected or embrace. We unfortunately do not really have time to study/ debate/ test, and need a workable plan now. I personally do not have the solution.

[BlackPeter17]

I'm so excited now! I'm sorry I've been distracted but I have a lot of wonderful stuff to share! I going to throughly read everything here and post a bunch of cool links.

from what I know, the unknowns are unknown. Geoengineering definitely is expensive and will have reprocussions. Right now we have to Focus on a world wide treaty cap and trade system and taxation for every molecule of co2 emitted. Like ASAP. How are we going to do it? That's why we r talking right now! We gotta put our heads together on this. Be back with fun stuff later :) I'm not disappointed anymore! I'm glad to hear voices, I thought I was alone over hear. I'm really thankful for every participant in this thread right now.

[BlackPeter17]

heres a link to the models:

http://forecast.uchi...edu/models.html

just click run me on which ever you'd like.  its not as self explanatory as you may like if you have any questions feel free to ask.  I have used a few and found them really interesting and useful to get a better idea of things. I recently was playing with the geological carbon cycle.  the silicate thermostat is really cool.  I like how in the model you can change the geological clock back 500000000 years ago, bump up the CO2 output to a rate similar to todays and watch how long it takes to naturally stabilize itself.  it is true that periods of warming occur throughout the earths history and its really interesting to see how long it actually takes to stabilize.  Also interesting to look at a runaway greenhouse gas effect that occurred on venus.

[BlackPeter17]

heres a link to a blog summing up some aspects on the new reports:

http://www.wundergro...l?entrynum=2656

[BlackPeter17]

I have a great simplified version of the IPCC reports about 44 pages long vs the 2 textbooks worth of info just put out in the reports.  I will try and figure out how to get that out if anybody wants to look at it.  

[Juthro]

I agree with you 100% Skywatcher, and while I’m sure mankind has some effect on the processes that are unfolding, I am not convinced we are as responsible as some people make us out to be.   I feel sometimes we give ourselves more credit (both good and bad) then we deserve. 

 

Direwolf, I agree the models are cool, but I feel that global interactive dynamics far exceed any model maker’s ability to predict, at least IMHO.  I feel it’s like we are trying to play a long game of chess, and we have not even identified what all of the pieces do yet. 

 

We are like a virus in the body of this world, she (the world) could shed us with a high fever.  We are not nearly as entrenched as we would like to think we are.  

 

People talk about how we are destroying the world, but what I see is we are just making it (or it is becoming) less ideal for us.  I’m not sure the world cares so much.  Historically there has been much more time when the world was inhospitable for our life forms then hospitable.   Yet there always seems to be some type of life that seems to find a nitch and prospers.  We always look at the bigger picture as it relates to us, like we are the center of the universe, and in truth this may be a little narcissistic.  I dont think the world will cry for us when we are gone.

 

So I try and live as responsibly as I can, and not to stress about the things that I can not change.  Easier said than done though.

[roscoe]

It boggles my mind that there is still a debate on whether or not climate change is happening.  It also perplexes me that that any one can say that humans are not helping to speed up climate change. 

 

No other species on the planet, as far as I know, drives cars, operates fossil fuel fired power plants, operates industrial processes, or raises cattle far above the capacity of the land they are raised on.

 

I have no doubt the climate warming up is a natural trend, that would be happening right now if humans were not around.  I also have no doubt that we are contributing to the warming.

 

We may not have the silver bullet to fix the problem, but that does not mean we as individuals are powerless and have to just stand by and watch it happen.  You can take action, today if you wanted to.

 

Instead of making short trips by car ride a bike or walk. not only good for the planet but good for you too.

 

Eat less corn.  Your probably thinking heck I don't hardly eat corn.  The sad truth is you do.  Corn is in most processed foods, it might not say corn on the label but you can bet if the product has more than 5 ingredients it has a corn derived product in there.  Something like 40% of all corn grown in this country is is turned into chemical feed stocks.  These chemicals find there way into your gas tank, your food, and soon into your pharmaceuticals.  That's right, corn is being modified and grown specifically to make chemicals for pharmaceuticals.  They are not yet approved for use but you can bet they soon will be.

 

As part of eating less corn you should eat less grain fed meats.   The vast majority of corn grown in this country goes to feed animals intended for human food.  Mind you these animals did not evolve to eat corn, which wreaks havoc in their digestive systems.  This havoc causes them to belch and fart even more than they already do, releasing more and more methane into the atmosphere.

 

Be conscious of your energy consumption.  We waste so much energy with his modern lifestyle, and hardly bat an eye at it.

 

Be conscious of your water use,  not only are you wasting more water than you should you probably do not even think about the energy that it takes to get that fresh water to your home.  And once there the heating of water takes even more energy. 

 

If it's yellow let it mellow, if it's brown flush it down.  Many of us do not give a single thought to the fact that we piss and shit into clean drinking water. This is water that some folks in the "developing world" would literally kill for.

 

Recycle, compost, buy products with less packaging.

 

If you can, buy food stuffs that are produced via perennial agriculture.  Annual agriculture is a huge user of petroleum, tractors, fertilizer, pesticides ect...  Not that perennial agriculture does not use a fair bit of petroleum but it uses far less than annual agriculture does.

 

There are so many more things you can do on a daily basis that amount to a small drop in the bucket, but if we all did them it would be a raging river of conservation.

 

Even if you don't believe in climate change could it possibly hurt to conserve more?

 

Oh. . . and for the love of Dog, plant and hug trees every chance you get.

[BlackPeter17]

The models are basic in function and currently there are much more safisticated ones existing however they are not free to play with from the comfort of your own house. The one I mentioned the geological carbon cycle is actually for the most part pretty accurate. The silicate rock weathering thermostat is dope man! I'm all about it. There are also other models on there that show how clouds work, water vapor in the atmosphere, ect.

Decisions that we make tomorrow on an individual basis will certainly effect the warming trend however if serious mitigation does not occur in the next 10-15 years the positive feedback systems that are almost at their tipping points will accelerate things. We have already gone to far and down irriversable damage. So far the only thing scientists have been wrong about was the rate at it's occurring. And unfortunately the rate is faster than predicted due to the complicated water distubution that was not and is still not completely understood.

The movie link I posted in another thread called carbon nation is really cool. Although something's I don't agree with, for the most part it explains a lot and puts things into a good perspective.

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=dtp_YJlF3NA

I'm also just about to finish the merchants of doubt which is an awsome boom I can summarize, or pass the book along. The climate casino book I just read was really good as well if anybody wants that I'm just about through with it.

[BlackPeter17]

Just for reference prior to the industrialization co2 levels in the Atmosphere were approximately 287ppm, since we started burning fossil fuels the amount of co2 in the atmosphere is up to approx 400ppm. I have chemistry books for years ago that reference 350, and 370 so I can watch the amount grow just through text book updates!

The co2 in the atmosphere prior to the industrial revolution is and was there because volcanos give off co2, however the silicate weathering thermostat controlled it. It's important to note that we are talking billions of years to bring down co2 through this system. Basically we are digging up carbon and burning it ourselves before a volcano can/while the volcanos continue to burn it too.

[BlackPeter17]

The biggest obstacle we face in my eyes is selling slow economic growth as a punch line to the rich people making the decisions. But if every country is on the same level and fossil fuel free then were good

The major concern now however is for the poorest populations that don't even burn fossile fuels. Its crazy to think we are punishing out children for crimes they did not commit but also that we are punishing other peoples children who don't even own shoes and contribute nothing to the co2 emissions.

Edited by Direwolf13, 10 April 2014 - 07:39 PM.