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Communal climate change discussion


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#41 BlackPeter17

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:34 AM

For 2014 the general concesus is there will be a gradual warming period over the next few months for the northern hemisphere, followed by a Cooling period leading into the end of 2014. The opposite will occur in the Southern Hemisphere!
Lol that was pretty easy and accurate right :)

But on a serious tip this year brings us El Niño, and it's stronger than ever. I have real time sati lite images I can dig up showing the warm water shedding off the coast of Peru :) allow me to find them.

August west the tax is a temporary solution to ease into complete cession of fossil fuels worldwide over the next few years. The only way to prevent the tipping points that are nearing from tipping are to reverse, not lessen the damage we've caused since the industrial revolution. Alls the tax means for us is that prices of non-green products will rise to be equivalent to green products making them obsolete, and having to buy better transportation devices, switching to renewables ect ect. These are actions that will be required to take. The coal and gas companies got too much capital and influence the only way to hold them accountable is to charge them for polluting.

Question: anybody on this earth should be allowed to pullute for a substantial self short term gain and not pay a penalty?

If I go into a state park and throw a plastic bottle on the ground people will poo poo me, I will get fined. What about the big polluters potentially contributing to a problem that will lead to extinction of 40-50% of all species? What about the natural gas fracing polluting people's water supplies, mountain top removal and pollution of local watersheds and coal plants local air quality pollution should they not be accountable for their actions locally and world wide? These questions go beyond self interest and are world wide problems. Big coal company gets rich, contributes to massive emissions meanwhile future families in the lower lattitudes that don't even own a car or have access to luxury if they had money to get it will be unable to feed their families. This is fucked up to me, I feel a higher sense of spirituality and mutual respect for other living/non living features of the earth are in order. It's time to stop the people who are fucking everything up. U and I are not getting rich, it's the people on top who see net gains and all they do is destroy life around them.

Edited by Direwolf13, 12 April 2014 - 06:41 AM.

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#42 BlackPeter17

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:47 AM

Just to get a feel for where we are at today let me ask a question that should be answered by anybody reading this even if they don't want to talk about it.

Do cigarets cause cancer? If you care to explain then briefly state your answer. Thanks! Love you guys :)

#43 Juthro

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:01 AM

I agree with August on tax issue, I am strongly against it.  To me it sounds like a way for government to capitalize on their own irresponsible behaviors.

 


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#44 BlackPeter17

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 10:22 AM

I'm not happy with the idea of spending more money either especially with reasons you just said juthro. But I'm unsure if the word "tax" is throwing you guys off.

Basically since there is no regulation on burning fossil fuels are not priced appropriately. That's why it's cheeper to burn them then greener options. The bottom line is they should not be used period. I feel like there is no way everybody in the world is going to just stop burning them unless an action like this is taken.

The take home point about this particular subject, and it's really simplest form, is the only way to prevent further accumulation of Co2 in the ATM is to stop putting it there right?

You can delay this, cut back on this, switch to another greenhouse gas, ect but none of these options stop the process they only may delay it. You can capture the co2 before it is emitted however this is crazy because in an accident you could release all accumulated co2 back to the ATM at once.

Is there a better idea to get this in motion? The capping of co2 emissions world wife is excellent idea as it allows countries to actually sell their share if they don't emit anything.

Let's start back at the beginning of this to get to where we need to be guys. Why is co2 targeted right now as the bad guy? What exactly does co2 do in our ATM? Wasent it there before the industrial revolution/isn't this a natural process occurring in earths history times of cooling and warning?

Edited by Direwolf13, 12 April 2014 - 10:23 AM.


#45 darci

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 05:55 PM

I'll talk about it.

 

I find the phrase "climate change" to be somewhat ironic, since it is meant to imply that the climate is changing, and therefore we need to be aware of how our behavior is affecting it so that we can prevent it from changing further.

 

The irony is that the climate has always been changing, and always will, with or without our influence or intervention.  There was once a time when nearly the entire surface of the Earth was covered in ice.  There was once a time when CO2 levels were twenty times as high as they are today.  Life flourished then.

 

Understanding the butterfly effect, you realize that to resolve the debate of "are we or are we not affecting the climate?" the answer would be YES, we are, but in ways we can never predict or understand.  The atmosphere is governed by laws called fluid dynamics, and fluid dynamics is what is called a "chaotic system" and no mathematics we have invented yet can do any better than make vague predictions over short time periods regarding the outcome of what we do.  In other words, whatever we may decide to do about it, it probably won't matter because our best guess of how it will affect the Earth is almost certainly wrong.

 

Rather than fret over the world changing around us and trying to force it to stay still or go some direction, we should learn how to change with it.  (If it happens!)

 

Life isn't war, it's a dance.


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#46 BlackPeter17

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:03 PM

I was just talking to somebody about how genetically modified foods actually may benefit us in the end.  the ability to manipulate a crop to grow in particular conditions will come in handy when facing the changes that are to come.  

 

Im trying to hurry up and finish this book but its long…  Im just finishing up the CFCs chapter which is very interesting because it seems the story line to that is similar to the issue at hand.  Are you guys familiar with the story?



#47 August West

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 08:10 PM

August west the tax is a temporary solution to ease into complete cession of fossil fuels worldwide over the next few years.



You're joking, right? Temporary taxes?

To be honest, this is a pretty uninteresting conversation, atm. If you care to address my rather specific questions, from above, I'd be more interested in maintaining a dialogue.

Edited by August West, 12 April 2014 - 08:15 PM.


#48 BlackPeter17

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:28 PM

I'm sorry for not addressing your questions my mind is elsewhere and time was focused on other subject areas. I guess we can continue this conversation tomorrow. I get distracted easily.

Sorry there's some kind of mis translation here. The world wide "tax" or charge for emitting co2 is a temporary solution to the problem. It is a step in the right direction towards complete abadement of co2 emittence world wide.

If you could however at least address any of my questions as well so I can get an idea of where this will go from here:
Do you think ciggerettes cause cancer? Agree with the extra tax put on and the label on the package?
Do you know what CFCs are and the story behind them? (This is what I had been reading up on today).
Thanks man, I'm excited to have the opertunity to continue this conversation also with the new additional members. Thanks for your participation and feedback which I value.

#49 Sidestreet

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:55 AM

 

The world wide "tax" or charge for emitting co2 is a temporary solution to the problem.

 

Money is the only thing that industrialists understand so a heavy enough tax might slow them down, but it will cost them less in the long term to buy the politicians needed to nullify the tax.  So yes, any such tax would be temporary in that it would be very short lived.

 

The only way to fix the emission of CO2 is to make it more profitable to be clean.  Of course, there is an equal backlash to any workable clean technology that threatens the cash flow of polluters.

 

The technology exists.  The means exist.  The will to change is the only thing lacking!  Not our will, of course.

 

CO2 isn't the bad guy... the bad guys are the bad guy.


Edited by Sidestreet, 13 April 2014 - 09:57 AM.

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#50 BlackPeter17

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:40 AM

Sidestreet its great to see you here :)  Im so very happy to see the numbers increasing in this conversation.  I wanted to state that I am in no way nor do I consider myself to be 100%green, an expert environmentalist or chemist, in fact I'm still part of the problem rather than the solution.  Over the years I began to develop a compassion for turing to greener options, And was big into watching cool stuff on tv about going green and reducing the foot print.  currently I use washable diapers for my daughter, boycotted plastic bottle drinks and filter my own water, buy recycled paper products and products made from recycled plastic and greener cleaning solutions, compost, and recycle everything I can.  I'm sure a lot of people here can say the same for their lives.  this is something to talk about and share. I still buy plastic products, I burn gas everyday in my car and heat my home with natural gas, and waste electricity foolishly.  Im part of the problem.  Im not pointing my finger at anybody here that is for sure.  I currently am taking a course on the subject matter at a big university, which has also gotten big grants recently to do research (I'm not involved in that whatsoever more of a spectator).  

 

I feel the need to also state that as the starter of this conversation I truly will take any challenge to explain anything to the best of my knowledge as well as offer scientific research and citations to whoever wants.  This is not a small order however and I hope that if you ask me to look into something or address something appropriately than you take the time to actually read what I post and respond thoughtfully.  Im not looking to change anybodies minds, everybody has the right to their own opinion however I do feel compassionate about this subject and want to share the knowledge with all of you that I've found.  if anything you can use it for more reasons why you don't believe this matter is serious in nature.  Im thankful for the members of this conversation so far and hope more will come by to post even if its to say that everything I'm talking about is complete bulshit.  however as I am being respectful to you, and backing up what I'm saying with the best sources I can find I ask the same of you.  I want to share this stuff I'm learning, pass it on to you for free all I need is your ears, minds, and participation.  WHat I hope to get out of this is a better understanding of what the general public thinks, responds to, and acts upon this knowledge.  answering your questions will further assist me so that next it comes up I can answer it quicker.  

 

I need to get a better idea of where you guys stand and the questions I proposed to you all will help me to better understand where your at and either open a door for explanation or save me some time of not explaining stuff you know about.  

 

My oder of operations today is:

write a paper comparing the movie carbon nation and the book the climate casino which I will post up here for you all to read, finish reading up on the CFC story, and address august wests concerns, then Darci statements, then follow up with side street.  

 

Im not done with this tax thing until I fully feel that everybody here at least understands the proposition.  I don't feel like I've done a good enough job explaining it so I will try again.  in the mean time if anybody has any spare time to answer any of the questions I asked, or tell me you don't know about something I asked and want me to tell you what I know.  IM so excited to continue this, and thankful for everybody here.  I love you all.  peace, love happiness, prosperity, growth.  

 

:smoking-hookah:


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#51 BlackPeter17

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 01:42 PM

heres an interesting quote I wanted to share that I just read as I finished the chapter on CFCs.  

 

"So Singer attacked the Nobel committee, too.  "In awarding the 1995 Nobel prize in Chemistry to the originators of the stratospheric ozone depletion hypothesis, the swedish Academy of sciences has chosen to make a political statement," he bean, writing again in the washington times.  "Swedish public opinion had supported the "hasty phaseout" of CFCs and even "putative carbon tax to turn back a global climate warming that has not even been detected yet… in short the country is in the throes of collective environmental hysteria."

 

So this chapter was crazy man, crazy.  DO y'all know about the CFC story yet?  I learned a bunch about it.



#52 BlackPeter17

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 04:52 PM

whoops I'm side tracked but found this useful to the discussion: here he is SVANTE ARRHENIUS 1896 Hypothesis:

The burning of coal (fossil fuel) over time will cause the atmosphere to warm. Problems: 1) The oceans should absorb excess greenhouse gases. 2) Not able to measure atmospheric trace gases in parts per million (ppm) and parts per billion (ppb). 

Arrhenius2.jpg

 

 



#53 BlackPeter17

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 04:57 PM

please watch this:

[Direct Link]

 

and this:

[Direct Link]

 

please and thank you :)



#54 BlackPeter17

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:36 AM

 

August west the co2 tax will be applied to everyone in the world. This is the only way that green options will be at the same price as fossil fuel options.

Let's just grant, for the sake of discussion, that computer models can accurately describe something as complex as global climate. Let us also grant (though I don't agree) that taxes, in general, are something that must be paid and therefor, we will have a tax system - again, in general.

As I stated above, carbon taxes are NOT the only way that "green" options will be leveled. The petroleum industry and all it's tentacles (the biggest being industrial agriculture) are subsidized by the U.S. military. They are also essentially subsidized by corporate welfare and a completely ridiculous tax system which allows the largest corporations and generally largest emitters of carbon (and far more pernicious problem of pollution) to do their work, not only tax free but often times receiving tax benefits. End all of the aforementioned tax payments, subsidies and loopholes and I'd wager that the energy playing field would begin to level rather quickly.

This means how much u drive your car you get a tax, this means the car companies will have to pay a tax for burning fossil fuels to make their cars, this means anybody burning co2 will have to pay extra for it world wide.

So I get punished because I don't live in an urban area?


Currently there is no charge for co2, as we release it to the atmosphere we are getting further away from ever being able to stop it as the cost to fix this is out of control. Where money will come from to fix this problem is an issue, therefore every individual, and every company world wide burning fossil fuels gets a tax. The money from the tax goes towards fixing the problem while the market stabilizes over the years. Fossil free will be the same price as taxed co2 products. Soon then greener will be cheeper.

How does this tax system work? Who oversees it? Where does the money go, who has oversight and what does that infrastructure look like?

I have many other problems with this but I'll leave it there for now, as that is plenty to respond to.

 

August west Im confused here and I just want to get some things clear before I proceed:

 

the first statement you make is that carbon pricing/taxing is not the only way to reduce GHGs?

 

the second statement I feel I have already addressed being that you are not being punished for living in a rural area, your being punished for burning carbon.  Theoretically speaking.  this sounds kind of harsh as I'm typing and I just want to make sure that the you is a hypothetical you.  I'm not point at you in particular.

 

The third statement you make is that you want to know more about how the tax system will work, where the money goes, and who oversees this process?  



#55 Xochinysius

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:36 PM

Well, I'm getting side tracked by reading this here discussion, but since its near and dear to me, I can't resist posting. 

I'm just going to state for the record, my official opinion on the matter of climate change: we're screwed. 

Now that seems a little pessimistic, and you might question how I've come to such a negative opinion, especially since we could change things and we could still have time to avert this whole mess. 

I'm not going to bore everyone by citing all my sources, or the long drawn out, ( and in some folks opinions, convoluted) chain of reasoning, as it would just lead to another gripe fest. I don't need to prove anything. It's already out there, to be seen and felt and experienced. 

No, to the climate denier, there is no conclusive proof. But of course, nothing in science is conclusive. That's the little wrinkle that allows them to seed doubt. And the lack of science education in general doesn't help. Science doesn't prove things. It Disproves things. Anything that can't be disproved, much be truth. But I digress from my main point. 

My main point being, we will never change in time. Theres simply too much enertia, and too many rich assholes out there countering any gains. All in the name of the status quo. Because of course change is expensive, and profits are at stake here. And if you were say, CEO of said polluting corporation, to admit that your company has been polluting, and making people sick, etc, would be the same as corporate suicide.  

Corporations are playing a version of the prisoners dilemma. That is, if they are all silent about their crimes, they all are minimally punished. 

http://en.wikipedia....soner's_dilemma

So we are not going to see any changes for the better from big corporations, or the governments (any of 'em!) or even from societies as a whole. Not in our life times. 

But I will give you a glimpse of whats to come. A prophecy, if you will. 

Anyone know anything about prehistory? Like, before the dinosaurs? My favorite period was the Devonian, about 420 million years ago. ( hehe, 420....). Its the time period that saw plants and land animals diversify onto land. 

But the Permian is where I'm driving, about 300 million years ago. Here's a good beginners course. 

http://www.geologycl...n_concepts4.htm

Then of course, there was the mysterious extinction at the end of it. Fossil evidence suggests, but does not prove, that 9 out of every 10 species died. Let me put that another way to drive it home. That 90% of all species.
 

http://en.wikipedia....tinction_event 

 Afterwards, the Triassic began, which was the age of Dinosaurs. You might think the dinos had the worst extinction event. Naaw, that was only around 60% of species. Not too bad compared to the Permian. 

So what caused the Permian-Triassic event? For the longest time, the main contender was a nearby supernova, that is, a star nearby exploding. But recent finds suggest otherwise. 

http://www.huffingto..._n_5068614.html

So what? A bunch of microbes made some methane, and there was some nasty volcanism. Big whoop right? Just some bad luck. Besides, those microbes aren't around today, we don't have to worry about methane too much. 

Oh wait.....

http://www.naturewor...nt-suggests.htm

But even the news that cows farting might end the world will, inevitably be mocked. So I'm going to show you the real bullet. It relates to that article there, with the Permian microbes making too much methane. 

Here are some buzzwords to know that the world is about to be screwed. 

Methane Ice
Methane Hydrates

Methane Clathrates
Ocean floor Methane Deposits. 

 

If you start hearing those worlds on the news, my friend, it will have been nice knowing you. Nobody is talking about it now, and mostly its because of how terrifying the prospect seems. 

http://en.wikipedia....gun_hypothesis 

 

So go ahead. Deny that anything's wrong. Go drive your H3 to the Mega Walmart. Buy yourself a grain fed steak. Eat some GMO pesticide corn. Don't forget to cook it all on that propane grill, because everyone knows how clean propane is. Relax, have a beer. And shit on your grandchildren. 

'Cuz you earned it. 

 


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#56 1967FordTitus

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:19 PM

X, great stuff!

#57 BlackPeter17

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:54 PM

Yeah X there's some awsome stuff in there I'm going to expand upon. This book I'm reading is crazy man crazy! The biggest problems lie within a small group of people creating doubt in our minds when there isn't any! And I will explain but basically cigarets, acid rain, CFCs, second hand smoke, and GHGs were all handled in a way that scientists proved that they were problematic over decades while the same group of people constructed counter narratives, scewed data, and straight up lied to the public. While fighting the cfc battle they actually accused other countries and scientists of trying to form a socialist movement for proving that GHGs cause global warming emitted by humans from fossil fuels in 1995. In fact scients have been silently publishing data since the 60s regarding the matter. There has been no uncertainty for a while. There are unknowns, of coarse the unknowns!!!! Where scientist say more research is needed and the counter argument is that that are atill unsure. The scientist read etching find unknowns such as which species will be unable to adapt to climate change and which will not however they are sure that 40-50% will not make it through a warming of 5deg c. Sounds pretty certain to me. Why do I care which ones adapt and which ones don't? Seems pretty crazy that some people care more when polar bears are brought up then when unicellular organisms that add to the diversity in or ecosystems...

#58 BlackPeter17

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:58 PM

Also I just learned about these little guys last night:

mycorrhiza fungi

Apparently found at higher concentrations in organic farming, most powerful in fighting co2 emissions!!!!
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#59 BlackPeter17

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:35 PM

http://report.mitiga...rs_approved.pdf

 

heres a smaller version (40 pages or so) of the new IPCC reports summary for policy makers.  



#60 hyphaenation

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:39 PM

Want the title of this thread to be changed from "disappointed" to "Climate change discussion"?
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