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Breeding / crossing psiloscybe cubenis


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#1 Heirloom

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 11:48 AM

I  have wondered if crossing other p. mushrooms races would be worth while.  I have read a bit on mushrooms but know there are people here who have an interest and could contribute valuable info and experience.

I know a fair amount about breeding field crops.

  if this post should go else where please move it , thank you


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#2 -=Zeus=-

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 03:36 PM

There's a bit more to it with fungi than with plants.  I think I've read an article that talked about snake venom being used to allow two different strains to cross, it dissolves the cell walls or something of that nature.  I bet The Chosen One would have more info...  


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#3 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 04:10 PM

To breed a cubensis with a different cubensis you need monokaryotic mycelium from both strains, and combine them. Monokaryotic myc is created from a single spore.

I am not sure about breeding different species together, oftentimes it is possible, like with horses and donkeys, makes a mule, which is sterile. Or different kinds of ducks can breed, but often the offspring are sterile. I am not sure how it would work for mushrooms.

We are still working out what belongs in this forum, so we may move it to magic fungi, but for now I think it can stay here. Good question!
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#4 Heirloom

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 05:49 PM

-=ZUES-= I have read about using enzymes to make breeding possible, those crosses were otherwise impossible.

I am interested in only crossing varieties of cubensis.

thanks TR , as you see I only wonder cubensis x cubensis.

move it if this is better suited else where.

 thanks



#5 Luckyloser

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 05:54 PM

Warriorsoul has a thread where he was simply over lapping spore prints and was ending up with extremely rhizo growth (that was said to indicate the hybrid). You need to pick species with extreme characteristics so you can identify the cross I beleive. ..This is just what I took from the thread....
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#6 coorsmikey

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 12:50 AM

Stamets talks about diluting spore sulution so thin that you can get monokaryotic spore germination in TMC if I remember correctly. Also isn't there something on the boards here for TCO's Falbino? I couldn't find the link.
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#7 Heirloom

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:15 PM

I will have to back here soon , yesterday my wife went crazy when I mentioned my post so I could not read and write.
got to much house hold work.

I was lucky to read a few abstracts, some on things like monokaryotic mycelia mated by hypal fusion. this was from an experiment.

I have come across info on breeding edibles, breeding to improve .

 



#8 hyphaenation

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:09 PM

There was some great threads that i linked to in the past about strain-creation/hybridization ... but I checked and every one is broken or missing since the "upgrade" of one year ago.

 

I still managed to quote some of the relevant stuff and save it before the threads were wrecked.

 

I'll leave the broken links , so people might possibly attempt to search for a working version.

 

 

TCO: Strain creation

http://mycotopia.net...html#post210102
 

Quote

As we have seen with RR and sheds PE6 and the PF albino crosses that Workman and I are working on, strains can be maniplulated to some extent. I don't know that it could be labelled as strain creation but some new strains may be the result of our tampering. At least with albino . The PE6 seems to be fairly stable and I think it's earned the right to be called a strain . I believe that some of todays strains have been created by similar work and breeding but the majority of strains are created naturally and discovered by people like Mushroom John.

Oh, and to answer your question mushaman, no, not quite the same or as easy. With the PE6 snake venom was used on the spores to allow the exchange of dna and with the albino crosses a monokaryotic mycelial Isolate was used.

 

 

 

Workman: Strain creation

http://mycotopia.net...id-strains.html
 

Quote

"Mixing ungerminated spores together should allow mating between strains of the same species (avoid mixing premade syringes since the spores can germinate within the syringe before use). Since most cubensis look relatively the same and an individual spore print from a single strain can generate a range of phenotypes, you need to use very different looking strains of cubensis to be certain of hybridization (and yes, I would call these hybrids in the broadest sense, just like hybrid corn which is also not an interspecies or intergeneric cross).

The obvious problem is distinguishing hybrids from selfed strains. Randomly mixing spores is a crude method and you are going to end up with a mixture of the original strains and hopefully some hybrids (assuming they are compatible). The hybrids won't necessarily look intermediate between the two original strains. If the parents were relatively true breeding without much variability, all of the hybrids are going to look about the same as each other (uniform) as they will each get 50% of their genes from each parent. Only later generations from spores will give you that mix of traits you are looking for (see below)

My initial hybrid work was between the PF albino and the PE strains, both true breeding from spores and easily distinguished from other strains. The cross looked like a normal unremarkable cubensis lacking the penis shaped caps and albinism of the parents. In this case the normal appearance helped confirm the cross but you can imagine that a normal looking cubensis isn't going to stand out in most other crosses. Controlled crosses are better in this regard since you can be sure the result is a hybrid no matter what it looks like.

Another issue is that you can't perpetuate the hybrid if you use the hybrid's spores to start the next generation. There will be all sorts of new strains revealed in the F2 generation as the mix of genes in the hybrid are recombined. Only after selecting for the traits you want for about 6 generations will the features you are after stabilize into a distinct strain (I use strain in the broadest sense even if its not technically correct).

The fact that a hybrid won't breed true is a method that vegetable seed suppliers count on for repeated sales and to discourage seed saving (the bastards). A package of hybrid corn seed will generate a superior and uniform corn crop. If you save that corn crop to replant the next season (to save money), you will end up with all sorts of mixed traits and not all will be as good as the original hybrid seed. This is bad for farmers but can be fun for the home gardener.

So the short answer is, yes it will work but you may not be able to tell. Hybrids tend to show hybrid vigor so even if you aren't sure or can't prove you were successful with the hybridization you may still end up with a superior strain . A good clue that a hybrid is successful is if the F2 generation from the hybrid's spores produces a wide range of phenotypes.

Go for it and have fun.

 

 

 

TCO: Albinos
 

Quote

well, first you'll need to Isolate a few monokaryons. it can be quite a job in itself.. speaking labor and material. if you get lucky, like Workman and myself did, you'll get one pretty fast. BUT.. the next step is being able to identify it. thus my signature lol. you'll want to look for something that looks far finer than normal myc. more like a fine, almost clear, silk. it tends to grow more slowly than dikaryon myc as well, but not always.
** a scope could be used at this point to confirm that one has a monokaryon Isolate , but is not a requirement as noted in our creation of Falbino.

once you have this/these you can now embark on several paths. my experience lies mostly with dilution isolation teks and natural mating, but i have done a lot of research. especially in what those clever and very secretive commercial folks are up to. this is where the concept of snake venom and ethylene glycol are derived from.. like i said, secretive. very little info as to ratios etc to be found. i have yet to use either myself.

however, carvacrol *the slip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carvacrol is of my own ideas and seems to be showing some promise. spores seem to have little problem germinating in a diluted environment and the myc grows ok.. but i have yet to really put it to the test. ratios are yet err.. unestablished ;) hopefully i'll have something to report in the coming months.

as i said, many paths to choose from. my advise at this point would to be attempt a varietal cross via monokaryon isolates first.. then move onto mild solvent type stuff when you become familiar with that. this will actually give you a standard by which to work so that you can gauge the differences.

know your subject well. :)

 

 

Here's a thread with good discussion that is not broken/missing:

 

https://mycotopia.ne...train-creation/

 

And some others I chased down:

 

PF Albino from Sporeworks (tribute)

https://mycotopia.ne...eworks-tribute/

 

Workman's Psilocybe Cubensis Breeding Method

https://mycotopia.ne...reeding-method/

 

Would this Work for Creating Hybrid Strains??

https://mycotopia.ne...in would this


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#9 Ecology

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:02 PM

Genetics and Breeding of Edible Mushrooms by A.C. Chang has a nice chapter on breeding and one on protoplast fusion techniques.  Good book.  I found one for $50 on ebay once.  Good investment if you want some higher end mushroom education. It is one of my go to books. 
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#10 Heirloom

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 12:24 PM

Thanks for all the responce.

There is very little info out there on crossing or breeding of PC.

      I have a lot more to say / post but my study time is short and difficult.

I have read about mutagenic experiments that provided 25 varieties to explore in edibles.

I am no fan of gmo or mutagenic breeding. I will read those writings though.

One does not want to try mutagen experimentation unless they have a MS/GC, I will not be working with mutagens.

I just want to explore crossing the best with the best  inbreed them and select from those to make a high quality multi spore variety.

 I am buzzed



#11 Ecology

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 03:24 PM

Huh... temperature and pressure can cause mutations. Your against that too? (I hope not.. but its still GMO)

 

 

And to think outside the box.  When I mention a book that costs $300-900 and you cant just chuck it on your Visa do not give up hope.  Go to the local library (some universities also can give you a card for a fee) and then get the book through inter library loan (ILL) its free.  Then do what you gotta do.  Some books I am glad I didn't plunk down a few hundred dollars for blindly without looking at them first.  Just wanted to pass that tidbit of knowledge forward. 


Edited by Ecology, 09 October 2014 - 04:36 PM.

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#12 Heirloom

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:33 PM

Ecology I am not so much against natural mutation, temp and air pressure are not so unnatural, I have seen air pressure experiments that were conducted on plants and the pressure interacted with the genetics in a tremendous way. A basement with a radon problem could produce mutations.

My main concern is producing chemotypes that might be harmful or a psilosybin homologue that is a 100 x more powerful.

I think of gmo as using genes from other organisms - gene splicing using butterflys to worms..ect.

We may differer on the definition of gmo.

Thanks for saving me a lot Of $ and suggesting how I can gain knowledge..

You gave a lot to think about, thanks



Anybody suggest a good microscope, must be able to take pics. I would prefer a usb micro.

The main need is high quality pics.


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#13 Ecology

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:49 PM

Heriloom PM me on your microscope needs I can see what I can dig up.  I work with a biomedical engineer that has the ability to get discounts and such.  Tell me what you are trying to take pictures of and I can see what I can do to match up your needs.  


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