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Coffee Quinoa Peroxide Cake *experimental*


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#1 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 10:02 PM

**** This is an experiment in process, an attempt to further the science of home mycology with new procedures and techniques. This technique is untested, unconventional, and experimental. It has not been peer reviewed. New growers reading this shouldn't attempt to use this method as a reliable way to produce mushrooms. **** -Mycotopia Moderation Staff




Well my friend from the 17th dimension decided to show me his "Plastic Tek Grow" and I will show it to you....

Basically using a modified PF Tek here that incorporates the use of Polypropylene (Plastic # 5) a high heat food grade plastic used in containers such as the Zip-lock 2 cup storage containers that will be used here. Polypropylene https://en.wikipedia...i/Polypropylenehas a melting point of 130–171 °C (266–340 °F) - with food grade being on the higher end. A 15 lb pressure cooker reaches a temperature of 250 degrees, which below this critical point.

Below is a pic of the cake containers ready for PC - unfortunately this style PC is small and only can do three of these containers at a time - so for the 9 cakes we had three runs.

1101141657.jpg

Here is the recipie used for these cakes and the container preparation:

This is a modified BRF recipie:

1.) 10 cups medium vermiculite.
2.) 2 cups dry quinoa
3.) 1.5 cups Sweet Rice Flour (Much like brown rice flour)
4.) .75 cup of coffee grounds
5.) 2 TBSP corn meal
6.) 1 TBSP Honey

The real difference here is that instead of water, 3% Hydrogen Peroxide was used in the mix. The reason is so that the standard 90 minute PC could be cut in half by using peroxide to kill most contaminants in the mix itself. The heat of the PC will drive off all the excess oxygen and the finished product will be a sterile substrate in 45 minutes of PC. This was done so as not to stress the plastic or cause it to leach plastic chemicals.

The BRF mix was chosen for fast colonization. The quinoa is a "super-food" rich in trytamine components. IT also allows faster colonization for the same reasons that birdseed does in bulk substrates. The coffee grounds offer nitrogen and some minerals. Gypsum could have been added, however that was not done here. The distilled water was used because just a little more moisture was required when the H2O2 ran out.

Water/H2O2 was added until the substrate could be squeezed and a trickle of water ran out for a second or two, then drips - holding the substrate in a basic "wad" - a little more moisture was added because the quinoa is dry and will take up water as it "cooks" in the PC stage.

The containers were prepared by drilling 4 holes along the sides of the screw on tops in the same manner as is done in the glass jar PF Teks. The containers were then washed and then rinsed in 91% isopropyl.

After filling the jars to within 1.5 inches of the top, an half inch of dry vermiculite was then added to the top as a "casing layer".

1101141501.jpg

The cakes were PC'd and placed in their sterile environment - a very nice clear tub on it's side that acted like a "pseudo-glove box" in that the lid was taped at the top so it could swing upwards as cake containers were placed in. The box and containers were wiped down with 91% isopropyl alcohol as were the hands - gloves were not used.

The alcohol lamp was made using an old pimento jar, a bit of a t-shirt, and of course... 91% alcohol - it worked beautifully!

1101142203.jpg

After about 4 hours the cakes were back to room temperature. They were then inoculated through the four holes previously drilled using standard procedures of heating the spore syringe needle red hot, then using alcohol swabs between every cake container.

The spores are PC-GT


Now the waiting game begins.

I shall post updates as they occur.

Edited by TurkeyRanch, 27 November 2014 - 04:50 PM.
Adding updated disclaimer

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#2 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 11:20 PM

Interesting!

I am moving this thread Fungi: Magic ------> Myco Lab

Sounds like a pretty rich mix, as well as a pretty unconventional sterilization technique. I am curious to see if it colonizes well. Keep us updated.

What is your intention if the jars colonize? Fruit them as cakes, or spawn them? Could you give us your incubation condition details?
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#3 imok

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 11:28 PM

How about doing a small batch of traditional vs this tek and compare here.

Side by side pics would show advantages of this tek vs Hip's tek.

Like TR says interesting.

These are the kind of experiments we like  :biggrin:


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#4 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 11:31 PM

And this is the intent of the Myco Lab Forum, experiments. I think. We still need to define this forum further, but that is a separate issue.
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#5 MLBjammer

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 01:11 AM

As far as that mix, I would predict a high contamination rate, but, like the super-cake formula, you can tweak it a bit once you have done a few runs and made observations.

 

I would highly recommend 70% ISO alcohol for the hobby.  The 91% stuff evaporates much more quickly and is thus less effective.

 

I PC cakes at 15 PSI for 30 minutes, which I learned here maybe 10-11 years ago, so 45 minutes is more than enough, and you will be good to go there.

 

I guess those are half-pint containers?  Man, that is a tiny pressure cooker.

 

I am always intrigued by coffee grounds, but every time I have used them, it's been contamination city.  Many have reported good results.  

 

As far as the plastic PP5 containers, they are heavily used overseas, where glass canning jars are more than scarce.

 

So I would say the experimental portion of this thread lies in the cake mixture, and that is how I would title it.

 

But thanks for posting the thread.


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#6 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 07:19 PM

The mixture, along with hydrating said mix with H2O2 is the experimental part.

#7 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 09:23 PM

Interesting!

I am moving this thread Fungi: Magic ------> Myco Lab

Sounds like a pretty rich mix, as well as a pretty unconventional sterilization technique. I am curious to see if it colonizes well. Keep us updated.

What is your intention if the jars colonize? Fruit them as cakes, or spawn them? Could you give us your incubation condition details?

 

Thank you TurkeyRanch - put it where you think it will go the most good!

 

It is a rich mixm and I know the dangers of contamination in such a mix, however the Ph is a bit acidic and hopefully with the unconventional sterilization and my careful clean techniques, I will avoid that issue long enough for a very aggressive myco growth - which is the reason for the mix.

 

My intentions are to do a standard cake fruit and then, when the cakes are spent, possible make up some LC with them, or use them to start a bulk substrate. I will think about that more if I actually get that far. For now, I just want to see if I can get to fruiting stage.

 

Incubation is in a clear large plastic box - I air it out once each day.  I am leaving the foil on for now, but will proceed to place micropore tape on the holes in a few days.


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#8 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 09:24 PM

How about doing a small batch of traditional vs this tek and compare here.

Side by side pics would show advantages of this tek vs Hip's tek.

Like TR says interesting.

These are the kind of experiments we like  :biggrin:

That would be a very good experiment, however my room, $$, and time capabilities are a bit limited at this time.  Glad you like!



#9 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 09:31 PM

As far as that mix, I would predict a high contamination rate, but, like the super-cake formula, you can tweak it a bit once you have done a few runs and made observations.

 

I would highly recommend 70% ISO alcohol for the hobby.  The 91% stuff evaporates much more quickly and is thus less effective.

 

I PC cakes at 15 PSI for 30 minutes, which I learned here maybe 10-11 years ago, so 45 minutes is more than enough, and you will be good to go there.

 

I guess those are half-pint containers?  Man, that is a tiny pressure cooker.

 

I am always intrigued by coffee grounds, but every time I have used them, it's been contamination city.  Many have reported good results.  

 

As far as the plastic PP5 containers, they are heavily used overseas, where glass canning jars are more than scarce.

 

So I would say the experimental portion of this thread lies in the cake mixture, and that is how I would title it.

 

But thanks for posting the thread.

MLBjammer, I appreciate your comments - but I hope you are wrong about your prediction of high contamination.  I am aware of the risks of a rich mix like this, but my hope is that the mycelium will take over faster than any contams...

 

Thanks for the advice on Alcohol - my assumption was stronger is better, but I see your point about the evaporation rate.  And yes, my pressure cooker is small - but it makes some wonderful ribs and pulled chicken let me tell you!  I really need to get a big round one...

 

The containers are 2 cup, or a full pint.  I was unaware how popular the plastic was - but I saw someone on this forum use it for a few of their caked because they ran out of glass and I thought it was genius!  Anyway, that is why I called the thread "Plastic Tek"

 

I am fine with changing the name of the thread however...

 

I saw where coffee adds much needed nitrogen - hopefully the H2O2 and 45 minute PC will alleviate any issues with coffee and contamination.  We shall see.

 

So, if one of the mods would like to rename this "Coffee Quinoa Peroxide Cake" feel free!



#10 hyphaenation

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 09:33 PM

Good luck with this. Sounds interesting.


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#11 BCMushMan

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:30 PM

New roads are good, if they don't get you stuck!  Your experimentalism pushes mycology to new heights ;)

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Edited by BCMushMan, 03 November 2014 - 06:40 PM.

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#12 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:37 PM

New roads are good, if they don't get you stuck!

Worse case scenario it all goes bad, I throw it in the garden and start over.  That's not so bad and I learned something!


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#13 whitethumb

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:47 PM

Very interesting mix... I too, would like to see how this turns out.

I do have a question. In the picture you posted, i saw only foil covering just the lid. My questing is, how did you keep from getting water into the container with just the lid covered? Thanks

#14 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 07:24 AM

Very interesting mix... I too, would like to see how this turns out.

I do have a question. In the picture you posted, i saw only foil covering just the lid. My questing is, how did you keep from getting water into the container with just the lid covered? Thanks

Actually the blue screw top lids that come on these ziplock containers is screwed on - as has 4 holes slightly larger than the syringe needle.  The water in the PC is only 1 inch high - does not go over the tops of the containers.

 

The tinfoil is there to stop contaminants from going into those holes but still allow steam to move out while in PC, and of course to allow CO2 to move out during colonization. The thought has occured of putting micropore tape over the holes - but that adds additional possibilities for contaminants.  

 

Frankly my reading tells me the less you play with these things, the better they do.


Edited by SteampunkScientist, 04 November 2014 - 07:24 AM.


#15 whitethumb

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 10:05 AM

I usually just wrap the whole jar in tin foil, maybe over kill but it's worked for me for many years.
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#16 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 10:09 AM

The micropore tape will help you avoid contaminants, not increase your odds of getting more. The tape acts as a filter. If you have a good dry verm barrier, you don't need tape.
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#17 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 08:01 AM

Today's Update...

 

Well. not much to say, I have been trying not to peek too much.  So far no contaminants are visible, however no mycelium strands either.  Keeping things at about 72 degrees at this time.

 

As soon as anything turns up, regardless of what it is, I will get some pics.



#18 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 06:00 PM

Okay so I saw my first evidence of mycelium on Wednesday.  YEsterday I replaced the tinfoil with micro-pore tape and here are the promised pics.  So far no evidence of any contaminants! 

 

1114141739.jpg

 

They are colonizing fast event though the temp goes from 70 - 74 during the day, sometimes even a bit colder at night.  Slow and steady...



#19 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 06:21 PM

micropore isn't that effective at filtering contaminates. i use it on tubs

because it is easier than poly and you can run it through the dishwasher

a couple times and it's still good lol.

 

stonesun did us all a favor and mounted a piece of micropore to a microscope

slide and looked at it under magnification. he compared the pore size to the

size of a cubensis spore. micropore tape is about as effective at filtration as

toilet paper lol.

 

here's a link to the thread i referenced-

http://www.shroomery...643478#13643478

 

here are some quotes from 3M about micropore tape-

 

 

Question:
What size microbe is blocked by Micropore tape?
Answer:
The term "microporous" may be used in several ways:
1. The holes are small enough to filter substances (e.g., bacteria). This meaning
of microporous is used for furnace filters, I.V. filters, etc. and infers that a product
filters or is a barrier to particles greater than a certain size.
OR
2. The holes or "pores" are so small that they are not visible with the naked eye.
This use is closer to what we mean when we say that a tape is microporous.
Although some of the tapes are for practical purposes occlusive or almost
occlusive, we don't claim that the tapes filter or block microorganisms.

 

 

Question:
Is Micropore tape sterile? Can it be sterilized?
Answer:
3M Surgical tapes are sold clean, not sterile.
Micropore tapes may be sterilized by ethylene oxide but NOT by steam
(autoclave)
. Although 3M provides sterilization guidelines, it is up to the facility to
ensure sterility. Sterrad™ processing with hydrogen peroxide is not
recommended for Micropore tape because the rayon fibers in the tape will
inactivate the hydrogen peroxide.



#20 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:31 PM

Well... Kinda wish I knew that before.  Wanted to allow the cakes to breath a bit, and I took precautions when taking off the tinefoil and putting on the tape.  Used the alcohol swabbing and swabbed the tops of the jars before putting the tape on, kept the jars in the box and cleaned the box as well.  Guess I will just have to see what happens at this point.  Not sure I would want to disturb them further by putting tinfoil back on now.

 

Instead - I'm just going to turn the jars upside down.  Then contams should not be able to "float" through the holes as long as there is no air movement in the incubator.


Edited by SteampunkScientist, 15 November 2014 - 08:40 PM.





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