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Suzie suspects psuedo-science stagnates spectacular dissssss-covery


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#1 roscoe

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 09:07 PM



 

**** This is an experiment in process, an attempt to further the science of home mycology with new procedures and techniques. This technique is untested, unconventional, and experimental. It has not been peer reviewed. New growers reading this shouldn't attempt to use this method as a reliable way to produce mushrooms. **** -Mycotopia Moderation Staff

 

This forum really needs a sticky talking about how an experiment is not an experiment unless it follows The Scientific Method (capitalized because it deserves that kind of respect).  At best an experiment that does not follow The Scientific Method is an anecdote, and it is awful hard to properly peer review and anecdote.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ientific_method

 

Along with the disclaimer I think we need a rigid template to ensure our scientists tick all the right boxes to qualify their experiment as actual science.

 

In this sticky we also need to discuss that using a multi-spore is NOT appropriate unless your experiment aims to prove something about genetic diversity.

 

There is some good work and some clever innovation here at Mycotopia, but there is also a heaping helping of shoty pseudo-science  being floated as actual Mycology.  If we do not hold the bar high for our scientists and their experiments then we risk becoming/remaining a joke in the scientific community.

 

I know we can rise to meet at least the minimum bar that is expected of science.


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#2 wharfrat

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 09:49 PM

well said brother. who the fug is Suzie? :tongue:


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#3 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 10:29 PM

Suzie is that girl you fooled around with in middle school or your freshman year, she was freaky and wanted to get down, but she was ugly as hell, and you didn't want your friends to know you were hitting that shit. . . .

*****

Thanks cycle, you're entirely correct, and that is the basis of this forum, the intent to prove new methods via the scientific method. You got me, i am being lazy, a sticky like that was the intent from the start. I have a rough draft in progress for a Rules and Expectations sticky for this forum, when I finish being too busy I will refine it and post it.

However, it seems like a lot to ask of all experiments, especially those started by beginner mycologists. My intent is to have a bit of leniency with ongoing experiments, and if something shows promise, more rigorous methods and standards would be applied. For instance, if the unsterile spawn/sub grow had succeeded, the next thread on the process would have to follow the scientific process to be taken seriously in any way.

Edited by TurkeyRanch, 01 December 2014 - 10:33 PM.

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#4 Juthro

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 11:28 PM

I remember Suzie... :blush:

That's how I found out I was allergic to penicillin. :ohmy:

 

That's kind of like a science experiment, right? :biggrin:
 


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#5 coorsmikey

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:33 AM

I like how TR worded it before, as teks that are repeatable. In my mind I was thinking it would be nice to have place to have advanced teks or even modified proven teks. More along the lines of successful completed experiments. If some wants to grow on unsterilzed/unpasteurized substrate and log it just post in "magic" now if someone has figured out how to consistantly grow successfully on unsterilzed/ unpasteurized substrate with repeatable results, then post to "Myco Lab". If I were to get a notion to grow on bone meal I would post it in "Magic". Now if I have been successfully growing on bone meal consistently and I have formulas and ratios dialed in to get repeatable results, where I would be confident that other experienced growers could get the same results, I would post in "Myco Lab". If I could figure out how to grow cubes on recycled books and tell everyone that is as good as at least the PF tek or better then "Myco Lab" would be a good place to put that. Now if I wanted to see if I could get rid of my used motor oil in safe manor that doesn't get into the ground water and try to grow cubes with it, then I would again post to "magic". If that actually worked, I would do many times to dial in the tek and figure out how much verm to add to how much moisture content to how much oil.. Ect. Then I would post it in Myco Lab so Wharfrat and Micrbe77 could critique it, try it. Confirm it. TR there's some food for thought. I appreciate your interest in getting Myco Lab dialed in. Cycle thank you also for your interest and opinion, it feels like there is some likeminded thoughts here in this thread. Thank to everyone else for listening!
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#6 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:43 AM

this is the reason i want the myco lab forum to be closed. post your experiments in

magic or edibles, and once the ideas are complete move them here and open them

only for repeat experiment posting by other members.


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#7 Cue

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:17 AM

 

This forum really needs a sticky talking about how an experiment is not an experiment unless it follows The Scientific Method (capitalized because it deserves that kind of respect).  At best an experiment that does not follow The Scientific Method is an anecdote, and it is awful hard to properly peer review and anecdote.

I would worry that making the standards too rigorous would dissuade us hobbyist from posting experiments.

To many us this is just a hobby.

Most of us have jobs and family that come first.

We are just some geeks messing around in a spare room some where filling in our free time.

That is what hobbies are for.

Look at Ben Franklin who was a publisher by profession. Yet he came up with some good shit in his spare time tinkering around in a spare room somewhere.

 

 

 

 

if someone has figured out how to consistantly grow successfully on unsterilzed/ unpasteurized substrate with repeatable results, then post to "Myco Lab".

Laboratories are for experimenting and if you have figured it out then it isn't an experiment.

 

 

I know I'm new here but I get intrigued following experiments even if I feel a train wreck coming on.

I'm too busy  with family and carrier to experiment personally so I get to experiment vicariously through others.

And if I'm lucky enough to be able to throw an idea out that is used them I too get to become one of the scientists involved.

 

Trust me I'm not venting.

I would just like to see this new forum flourish.

So I would hate to see encumbered by harsh rules and strict guide lines.


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#8 coorsmikey

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:23 AM

If it was closed then would peers still be able to critique, add innovations, and possibly confirm results? At least have it for completed experiments that have results to back it up. Maybe it's just to complicated to pull off. Maybe it does need to be closed. I believe there is enough interest to keep the forum alive but I do think some rules should be applied. Or the experimental part more defined. From what I have seen recently on here that has been posted by members since Myco Lab was established, there would be two threads from microbe77 and eatsualive. The rest are still in the production stage. Sorry if I missed someone else that have completed their experiments! Arathu should be considered for his woodlover contributions too, I am only talking about what has been posted since the birth of Myco Lab, there are so many others that contribute overall. I guess we shall see how Myco Lab evolves.

#9 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:26 AM

why could members not post experiments in the regular mushroom forums?

lab reports are prepared from finished experimental notes. when you say the

word "lab" it draws a definite picture in the mind of anyone with a scientific

backgroundand i want this community to maintain (and gain) respect amongst

the OMCs. not become the center of the pseudo science world.

 

peers could critique, add innovations, and confirm results in the normal forums,

then the posts could be copied over so that members could find teks without

having to read through the back slapping, congratulatory, or off topic posts.


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#10 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:27 AM

basically- this could become like the new vaults but we could consolidate similar

methods into a single thread with credit to the idea originator.


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#11 coorsmikey

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:43 AM

It might just have to be that way to work, but it would be nice to have it as an open forum with established guidelines. It sounds like we are on the the same page, but we just need to refine.

#12 Cue

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:53 AM

Another idea:

Limit who can post here to only the members who have as you say "scientific background" post here.

And us hobbyist with out the scientific background can just sit back and watch.



#13 Juthro

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:06 PM

To me it sounds like you need two new sub-forums. One for methodical science based experiments, and another for people to post their more unconventional seat of the pants type experiments.

Sometimes those seat of the pants experiments can yield a gem of knowledge, a eureka moment so to speak. But I understand not wanting that type of project mixed in with methodical scientific method experiments.
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#14 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:25 PM

^^^^^^

Juthro, exactly!

This has been a point I have made in management discussions on what the Myco Lab should be.

I envision two forums, one for ongoing experiments and for "hobbyists" to post their experiments, and another forum to prove new techniques and present findings in a scientific manor.

The idea of this is twofold in my mind, provide a safe place for amateurs and journeyman level mycologists to experiment, and also create a scientific method based forum to legitimately prove and peer review methods. These two forums may have to be different, thus why I agree whole heatedly with Juthro.

Mycotopia has contributed HUGELY to the advancements in home mycology thus far, and this new forum(s) is an attempt to take it a notch higher.
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#15 Juthro

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:36 PM

Thanks TR, the way I see it there should be enough room for both. That way everyone gets a place to play with out butting heads.
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#16 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:50 PM

Yep, that is the idea as I see it. We have a lot going on right now, so it might be a month or two before we sort this issue out satisfactorily, but rest assured, it will eventually evolve into basically the format outlined above.
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#17 CatsAndBats

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:29 PM

^^^ Agreed, this forum appeared right around when I joined the site, and personally I just have my extra spawn grows in here as a fun way to try out different subs. I'm no Louie Pasteur, but I don't think this forum is eroding away at the scientific method. Mrs. H only said be detailed, take pictures, keep an OPEN mind and have fun.

 

Personally my "real" grows are still being mastered and I will post them after they are detailed and repeatable with precision.
 



#18 CatsAndBats

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:29 PM

Suzie = moped

 

Fun to ride but you don't want your friends to see you on one.



#19 pharmer

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:35 PM

this discussion is the perfect example of how poorly understood THE scientific method is, even by naturally smart or semi educated people.

 

I'd support the idea of a Peer Review forum if it is properly policed. Otherwise it will quickly fill up with threads we are all too familiar with for example Sloppy Suzies tries Suds and Spud for the First Time Ever.

 

Clearly the curious first time amateur who has the entirety of the current and archived material at his disposal needs to be kept out of the Peer Review area. God help the moderator who volunteers for that task.

 

Science = Discipline (insert unequal sign) Usual Internet Citizen


Edited by pharmer, 02 December 2014 - 01:36 PM.

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#20 drmcnasty

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:55 PM

Would you guys stop talking about my sister like that! Seriously though, we need the mycolab. It is a place for people to use "unconventional" methods. The whole reason I joined the family here is because back then people here were doing things differently as opposed to the "by the book or it will fail" mentality at shroomery. At some point some of that mentality poisoned this board and people started being harassed by mods for their unconventional methods. It's a shame that some of those people were banned, some left on their own and the rest just keep their mouth shut in fear of being banned. There is something to be learned from everyone, even if you dont see eye to eye. Like others have stated let they experimenting go on in the lab and have another section for proven methods that have been put together properly and peer tested and reviewed.

Edited by drmcnasty, 02 December 2014 - 07:31 PM.

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