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Using tryptophan to increase alkaloids


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#1 Headinthehills

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 08:09 PM

I am proposing that adding tryptophan to the substrate will increase the overall psilocybin/psilocin in cubensis mushrooms. To test my hypothesis I am growing two different clones from two different strains, totaling 4 total tubs. One of the substrates of each clone will contain an additional 1/2 tsp of tryptophan powder. The other will contain the same amount of corn spawn/sub with no added tryptophan.
Today I spawned two bags of two quarts colonized popcorn each into 6 quarts of coir/straw/verm substrate at a 40/40/20 ratio respectively. I added 1900mg tryptophan powder to both of the six quart batches before pasteurization. I have two more bags inoculated from the same two clones that are about ten days behind. These will be the control batches. They both contain two quarts of popcorn and I will spawn them into an identical mix.
I'm going to test potency in two ways. One way will be via methanol extraction of like amounts of fruits. Secondly will be a blind test. I will have a friend grind up dry fruits and capsule them up. Then we will administer the capsules to four people. I will not know which is which. Exactly the same dose will be given to the group. Two weeks later he will give the people the other batch from that strain. Compare trips and see if either one felt stronger to anyone.
As I get more strains I will try this more. Also with varying amounts of tryptophan.
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#2 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 09:13 PM

Subscribed.

Excellent experimental design!

#3 Headinthehills

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 10:05 PM

Details I spaced. The two strains are burma and Argentina. The substrate was pasteurized in the oven at 175 for three hours inside a turkey bag.
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#4 MycoDani

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 10:24 PM

I love pasturizing poo in the oven so easy! Excited to see what happens.

I have heard of this long ago and would like to know more!

#5 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:28 AM

Very cool. If you have the spawn, you could do another batch with double the amount of tryptophan now, and include it at a later test, measured against the control batch. That way you have two experimental runs to look at instead of two.

Further experiments would tell you more if you used the same clone/strain, but varied the amount of potential "precursor".

Looking awesome so far!
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#6 Headinthehills

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 08:17 AM

Both of the lc's that I used were used up between these two batches. I'll be cloning from each tub and repeating the experiment with double the tryptophan. I should also be getting some prints in the mail but I dont really want to try this with ms unless the results are fantastic, so it will be a little while before I can try it with those. If anyone else out there wants to test this too, I'd like to hear the results. Tryptophan is readily available at your local health food store, it is a kinda pricey item at $26 but worth it in the name of science.
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#7 CatsAndBats

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 09:57 AM

what is special about tryptophan? 



#8 Headinthehills

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:26 AM

Tryptophan is what the mushrooms are producing the psilocybin from. It's present in the corn and I'm guessing by adding more of it, there will be more psilocybin produced. There are studies to support the hypothesis. A really interesting one was by Alexander shulgin. He thought that by feeding different tryptamines to mushrooms you could come up with new compounds. There's an eleven step process in the mushrooms. One compound in particular he produced was 4-hydroxy-amt. So I have other experiments in mind. Another that I just read was using tryptophan to produce more potent mushrooms. It's in another thread I just posted in the grow forum. I forget who put it on there, but it was helpful.
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#9 CatsAndBats

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:36 AM

is it the same "sleepy" compound found in turkey?


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#10 Headinthehills

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:46 AM

Yes it is. It's in the sleep section of the vitamins
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#11 CatsAndBats

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:53 AM

Then get busy son! Seriously, good stuff. I'll be reading this thread.



#12 TurkeyRanch

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 03:33 PM

You should try to come up with a master culture of an isolate that you can use over the course of the experiment, if your going to play with it for a while. It will make your results way easier to extrapolate conclusions from. You can keep it on agar or grain in the fridge, and use it to make all the spawn for your experiments.

This is cool. Keep at it!

Edit: actually you still have lots of this culture. When you spawn those jars, put a tiny piece of myc or a single kernel of popcorn on a plate/jar to make a master culture. Or spawn another jar g2g to make a master jar for another run of jars with the same culture.

Edited by TurkeyRanch, 16 March 2015 - 03:58 PM.

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#13 Headinthehills

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 06:09 PM

I'm just starting to play with agar. My last batch was too runny. Gonna add more malt/agar and re-pc it. I'm making 500ml so I should be able to make the stuff work for me.

#14 Headinthehills

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 07:27 AM

Looks like both of the controls are ready to go into tubs today. Hopefully none of my old contam problems pop up. I've been doing things in a much cleaner room and not checking them for ten days to ensure they're colonized before I open the tub.
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#15 jasonstem

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 03:20 AM

Holy moly!
I'm going to follow this- I have full myc'd out jars of popcorn- wondering if my next thing-
My 100% O2 pressuring the housing unit to 3lbs- it was awesome- I grew such amazing shrooms- then when leaked water all over my carpet under the wall and into her side of the closet- I turned the mad scientist down a bit- but mushrooms did better in the 02 box than ever- but it is too expensive and could be potential hazardous to everything and one. So- skip the pressurized O2 grow- it didn't work well- it was kinda weird too- like mushroom farts when the valve would let air out-
Anyway-
Thank goodness for the Internet-
So the O2 worked maybe because I was paying so close attention all the time. That was before I took 7 grams. Now I am a more patient man. Thanks hindsight!
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#16 jasonstem

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 03:22 AM

Oh- and...I saw an old lady staring at some kids...it was kinda creepy!
See what you think?ImageUploadedByTapatalk1426753346.366806.jpg

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#17 Headinthehills

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 07:59 PM

Quick update:
Both Argentina tubs went bad. This strain seems to have almost no resistance to contams. To date only one tub has made it to fruition. On a brighter side both burma tubs are doing great, I've begun fanning them. The enhanced tub is starting to knot up already.
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#18 Soliver

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 11:49 PM

I think TurkeyRanch has it ...

 

Results are questionable unless you're working with at least a single culture - otherwise, it's all too subjective and dependent on variables.

 

It's been an ongoing debate whether or not this would work - It'd be cool if someone really hit the research, but - unfortunately - it's often just easier to eat more shrooms  :)

 

soliver


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#19 TVCasualty

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 01:52 PM

Both of the lc's that I used were used up between these two batches. I'll be cloning from each tub and repeating the experiment with double the tryptophan. I should also be getting some prints in the mail but I dont really want to try this with ms unless the results are fantastic, so it will be a little while before I can try it with those. If anyone else out there wants to test this too, I'd like to hear the results. Tryptophan is readily available at your local health food store, it is a kinda pricey item at $26 but worth it in the name of science.

 

The cost is why I bailed on similar experiments a long time ago. I'd even been using quinoa as a supplemental grain (doesn't work as 100% quinoa) as it's the grain with the highest level of tryptophan (among grains).

 

IME, this is one of those "theory vs. practice" dilemmas. The old cliche' goes "In theory, there should be no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there's a difference."

 

It may well have been boosting psilocin/psilocybin content but the subjective difference (compared to a non-supplemented sub) was too subtle to be definitive. Then in a thread about it posted at the time the discussion veered toward a consensus that the best way to maximize psilocybin production within a given space is to switch to woodlovers or Pan Cyans.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that all we can do is allow a strain to express its maximum genetic potential, which has an upper limit. Adding more special nutrients than it can use means the surplus won't be used, and tryptophan is expensive!

 

During that discussion a member (I think it was Waylitjim) reminded us that the world's most potent psilocybe grows on plain ol' wood (though there's some speculation that P. subaeruginosa may be stronger in some cases). IMO a cost/benefit analysis would conclude that focusing on growing woodlovers would be the most efficient approach to getting as much magic as possible in the smallest amount of space and with the cheapest substrate material.

 

This is a handy chart of psilocin, psilocybin, and baeocystin content of 12 different species which illustrates relative potencies pretty well: https://www.erowid.o...oms_info4.shtml


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#20 CatsAndBats

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 03:05 PM

Well put. The math makes sense.






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