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How to destroy your actives: new discoveries in tea making


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#1 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 06:05 PM

Well my fellow topiates, I discovered how you can destroy you actives in any tea you make. You may refer to my previous thread here: https://mycotopia.ne...-2#entry1240636 where after making a cold extraction, nothing happened. I must confess this has been driving me crazy especially after performing a "Lazlos whoopass tea tek" and experiencing "whoopass" in spades.

So... Being the scientist, I need to have an answer, but everything I tried or investigated led to brick walls.

But then I hit on an idea. As some of you know I like to hike when I trip, so I made a Lazlo tea, exactly like I did before. 1 hour steep and simmer, squeeze and another 20 min steep and simmer squeeze.

I put some citrus in, just as before. BUT... This is critical... I put it in the fridge to consume on the trail next day.

Guess what? Absolutely no actives!

What does this mean? Simple. Lazlo's tea is meant to be used IMMEADIATLY. The acid from the citrus converts the Psilocybin to Psilocin. But while Psilocybin is rather stable, Psilocin is not. The actives were converted and by 15 hours later were gone.

Here's the kicker, had I sprinkled in a pinch of baking soda, and then added lemon juice on the trail, I would have had my ass kicked.

So remember kids, use your extracts immediately, or store them neutral to slightly basic. Refrigeration does not help if the solution is acidic.

If anyone wants to dispute this, then I invite you to make two bottles of extract and make one basic, the other acidic and try them after they have sat in your fridge for 24 hours.

SpS.

PS: none of this ever happened except as a dream I had and that was a lie. You know what I'm talking 'bout.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 05 September 2015 - 08:16 PM.

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#2 Sidestreet

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 06:42 PM

Hey SPS, I moved your thread into the psychedelic kitchen cuz it relates to recipes.  :)


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#3 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 08:12 PM

Thanks side! Was not sure...
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#4 Alder Logs

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 08:43 PM

Dry mushrooms travel so well. Still hit well up on Ball's International Tripping Scale.  A little water, a twig fire, a lemon or lime, and little reason to hurry, could not one have it just their way in the bush?

 

Someone walks up and... jus avin' a spot'o'tea, govna.  Pip pip.


Edited by Alder Logs, 05 September 2015 - 08:49 PM.

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#5 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 08:53 PM

I suppose one of those mini camping stoves would be quite the thing!
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#6 Juthro

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 09:41 PM

You could use a homemade one, check out the last post of this thread (#14).

https://mycotopia.ne...bushcraft-tips/

Edited by Juthro, 05 September 2015 - 09:42 PM.

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#7 azure7

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 09:47 PM

super interesting info Steampunk ...


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#8 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 10:03 PM

Your mini soda can stove would be perfect!
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#9 Juthro

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 10:49 PM

I thought you would like it. It is kind of steam punkish, after all.
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#10 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 08:11 AM

IMG_20150905_124737570.jpg

Here is a pic from that hike....
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#11 Soliver

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 11:10 AM

https://mycotopia.ne...ve-been-having/

 

Sounds like we've been having a shadow weekend, man!

 

All of this merits a true scientific method, methinks ... I need to sit down and make a schedule or something ...

 

:)

 

soliver


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#12 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 11:26 AM

That's some excellent additions to figuring this out. Even though there was no trip, per'se, there was still a deep introspection, so something was in there.

Methinks there is a lot more going on here then meets the eye!
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#13 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 02:56 PM

Boiled water is free of oxygen, but quickly reabsorbs it from the air once it cools. That seems like it probably has something to do with it.

 

My big batch of Everclear extract had a lot of citric acid added during the soaking phase, and the brew stayed very potent through the 6 years it took me to consume it all, but it contained very little water. Still, it would have contained a lot of dissolved oxygen, so there might be something else going on.


Edited by TVCasualty, 06 September 2015 - 02:57 PM.

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#14 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 03:27 PM

TV, alcohol is a natural preservative and used to be used for preserving biological samples before formaldehyde. I suspect that the presence of alcohol stopped the oxydation of Psilocin in your case. Another peice of the puzzle.

#15 happy4nic8r

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 03:39 PM

I wonder if alcohol stops the conversion as well, but then you might do that in your body when you consume it.


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#16 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 04:08 PM

The way i see it is after psilocybin dephosphorylates into psilcin, psilocin readily oxidizes in the air so by simply filling a container to the top leaving as little air space as possible and keeping it closed will allow for further dephosphoylation of psilocybin and less oxidation of psilocin.


Found this quote on another thread. I think it explains a lot here...

#17 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 04:12 PM

I wonder if alcohol stops the conversion as well, but then you might do that in your body when you consume it.


It may, I suspect however by adding a weak base like baking soda, thereby making the water slightly basic will keep the actives in the Psilocybin state. Alcohol may do this as well. Probably good to do both and throw in a shot of your favorite adult beverage!
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#18 TVCasualty

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 12:46 PM

TV, alcohol is a natural preservative and used to be used for preserving biological samples before formaldehyde. I suspect that the presence of alcohol stopped the oxydation of Psilocin in your case. Another peice of the puzzle.

 

But the way alcohol preserves tissues does not involve oxidation (or its prevention), which is why it prevents the growth of both aerobic and anaerobic microorganisms.

 

Psilocin/psilocybin breaks down either through oxidation or by being denatured by UV light or excessive heat (somewhere over 300-350℉, IIRC). There is definitely going to be dissolved oxygen in the Everclear extract, and there will be some water as well since right from the bottle Everclear is at the very least ~5% water and that percentage continues to rise over time as it draws moisture from the air. 

 

In the interest of figuring this stuff out, here are all the pertinent details that I can think of regarding my own extractions: My second Everclear extract contained ethanol, between 5-15% water, citric acid, and the extract itself (solids were filtered out except for a small amount of ultra-fine sediment). I'd concentrated and reduced it from a larger volume by simmering for a few hours; I used 1.5 gallons of Everclear to extract about a pound of bone-dry aborts (it takes a while to save up a pound of aborts, but it's worth it!). The initial soaking lasted ~8 weeks, and I reduced the filtered extract to ~64 ounces by the time I was done (filled two quart jars). I believe I used WAY too much Everclear, by the way (not that too much is a bad thing for the extract, it's just unnecessarily expensive if purchasing it retail).

 

I also crashed-out as much sugar as I could both before and after reducing it (by putting the bottles in the freezer overnight so that crystals form on the glass, then pouring the still-cold liquid into a new bottle). The sugar mostly stays stuck to the glass but a good bit also crashes-out as loose grains so another filtering may be in order, but it's optional. It used to be thought that the crystals were pure psilocin or psilocybin, but they're just sugar (I've eaten a large heaping teaspoon of them to no effect, but they tasted very sweet). 

 

My first extract did not contain citric acid, and it lasted a couple of years (~2, it was a smaller batch) without a significant loss of potency. There was in fact a noticeable drop, but not so much that it ever ruined any of my plans. The second seemed to fully-retain its initial potency more than 5 years after I'd made it. At first glance, the presence of citric acid seems to be the only difference between the batches. I stored both in the freezer with minimal exposure to light.


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#19 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 01:12 PM

Interesting TV! If oxygen is the culprit, I still wonder if a basic or neutral solution will preserve longer than an acidic solution, at least for 24 hours. But if alcohol preserves it, what is the minimum percentage in water? And I wonder how we can keep oxygen out of the water...

#20 Soliver

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 01:33 PM

My last big batch of extract was good for ten years.  I didn't use citric acid, but probably will next time (can't hurt, IMO).

 

It takes weeks for it all to extract into the ethanol - maybe more like months.  I don't understand why, and I don't understand why the stuff that makes me feel poorly isn't extracted, but clearly the nasty components are either not soluble in ethanol or they are converted / destroyed / I dunno - by longtime exposure to ethanol.

 

A good everclear extract is like weaponized / pimp grade mushroom - fantastic stuff if you have the quanities and the patience.  Now that I'm old (older?) I have patience in spades, but not as much time to devote to the organic side ...

 

:)

 

soliver


Edited by Soliver, 07 September 2015 - 01:34 PM.

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