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How to destroy your actives: new discoveries in tea making


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#21 happy4nic8r

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 01:43 PM

I basically tried this cuz I live in a state now that even sells Everclear.

 

I use it for lots of other activities, besides drinking it to the tune of a 1.75 liter bottle a month, and cleaning out the vape pen. the cost is prohibitive, but what's some spare change when you are getting the real deal.

 

what made them water the stuff down for sale elsewhere? I noticed they add acetone to the 91%EtOH they sell at Rite Aids so that their stuff can't be drunk, quite a bit cheaper, so you know it's not the cost of production.

 

I was surprised to find that they use alcohol in Listerine as well, since I was told by my parents that they use methanol and it was poisonous to drink. (like lots of things they told me were also not true)



#22 TVCasualty

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 01:45 PM

Interesting TV! If oxygen is the culprit, I still wonder if a basic or neutral solution will preserve longer than an acidic solution, at least for 24 hours. But if alcohol preserves it, what is the minimum percentage in water? And I wonder how we can keep oxygen out of the water...

 

It'd be an interesting experiment to take an extract and divide it into several containers, adjust the pH of each so there is a low, neutral, and high-pH solution and then store them for a while before conducting the usual bioassay to see which retained potency best. Still, that's a hard experiment to control all the variables for, but it'll have to do until we can check hard numbers with a chromatography rig (or whatever).

 

Citric acid is an "antioxidant" so I imagine it would work the best, and citric acid has turned blue water (from soaked fungi) back to clear, which was fascinating and suggests something significant is going on there.

 

I'd also imagine that the minimum concentration of alcohol to preserve the actives would be the same as whatever has been determined to be the minimum concentration necessary to prevent microbial growth. I'd guess it's somewhere around 30-40% (60-80 proof) but I suspect that the concentration of alcohol would have no meaningful effect as far as preventing oxidation of the actives is concerned.

 

Oxygen can probably be kept out of the water by storing it under vacuum, or by storing it in bottles that are sealed after you've displaced any air with compressed nitrogen (bottles of compressed, food-grade nitrogen are sold for preserving the flavor of wine after a bottle is opened, so that might be worth looking into).


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#23 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 03:46 PM

Well here is some more interesting data. I may be wrong about the idea that a basic or alkaline solution will work: from Wikipedia...

Psilocin can be obtained by dephosphorylation of natural psilocybin under strongly acidic or under alkaline conditions (hydrolysis). Another synthetic route uses the Speeter-Anthony tryptamine synthesis starting from 4-hydroxyindole.

Psilocin is relatively unstable in solution due to its phenolic hydroxy (-OH) group. In the presence of oxygen it readily forms bluish and dark black degradation products[citation needed]. Similar products are also formed under acidic conditions in the presence of oxygen and Fe3+ ions (Keller's reagent).

It looks to me to water itself along with acids that present a problem in breakdown. While Psilocybin is only slightly soluble in ethenol, it appears to be stable once in it. This accounts for long soak times necessary.

Water gets it out quick, but unless you freeze it, apparently breakdown begins, and this I believe us why bone dry mushies last so long. No water to break it down.

So here is an experiment: extract with water then add 50% by volume everclear. That and then freeze. This should quicken the extract phase, while slowing the breakdown phase.

It turns out that disolved oxygen is a big headache in beer making... They use CO2 to purge it. Laboratories use nitrogen or argon. That's a bit much for just making tea.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 07 September 2015 - 04:24 PM.

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#24 Soliver

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 04:22 PM

I need to win the lottery.


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#25 morfin-56

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 03:14 PM

I need to win the lottery.

Me too, need to open the topia brewing co.

Myco brew co sounds good also

Edited by morfin-56, 08 September 2015 - 03:15 PM.


#26 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 05:58 PM

Mmmm yes. A craft beer for certain!

#27 marias_son

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 07:36 PM

When shrooms are legalized we can incorporate pro teks

and create p. cubensis beer 

 

Cheers!



#28 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 September 2015 - 12:45 PM

When shrooms are legalized we can incorporate pro teks

and create p. cubensis beer 

 

Cheers!

 

Why wait?
 

:cool:


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#29 coorsmikey

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Posted 09 September 2015 - 01:11 PM

Interesting TV! If oxygen is the culprit, I still wonder if a basic or neutral solution will preserve longer than an acidic solution, at least for 24 hours. But if alcohol preserves it, what is the minimum percentage in water? And I wonder how we can keep oxygen out of the water...

 
It'd be an interesting experiment to take an extract and divide it into several containers, adjust the pH of each so there is a low, neutral, and high-pH solution and then store them for a while before conducting the usual bioassay to see which retained potency best. Still, that's a hard experiment to control all the variables for, but it'll have to do until we can check hard numbers with a chromatography rig (or whatever).
 
Citric acid is an "antioxidant" so I imagine it would work the best, and citric acid has turned blue water (from soaked fungi) back to clear, which was fascinating and suggests something significant is going on there.
 
I'd also imagine that the minimum concentration of alcohol to preserve the actives would be the same as whatever has been determined to be the minimum concentration necessary to prevent microbial growth. I'd guess it's somewhere around 30-40% (60-80 proof) but I suspect that the concentration of alcohol would have no meaningful effect as far as preventing oxidation of the actives is concerned.
 
Oxygen can probably be kept out of the water by storing it under vacuum, or by storing it in bottles that are sealed after you've displaced any air with compressed nitrogen (bottles of compressed, food-grade nitrogen are sold for preserving the flavor of wine after a bottle is opened, so that might be worth looking into).
observations I have made. Extract I have done 90%+ everclear I have store for months at room temp with no bluing or noticeable potency loss. Extracts done with 80 proof Vodka will show signs bluing within minutes. So I think that the percentage of ethanol is important in making extract. However I have noticed that I can do the extract with the everclear and once the extract is done I can dilute with an acidic juice such as orange or cranberry and store for a long time with no bluing.

#30 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 September 2015 - 01:15 PM

 

 

Interesting TV! If oxygen is the culprit, I still wonder if a basic or neutral solution will preserve longer than an acidic solution, at least for 24 hours. But if alcohol preserves it, what is the minimum percentage in water? And I wonder how we can keep oxygen out of the water...

 
It'd be an interesting experiment to take an extract and divide it into several containers, adjust the pH of each so there is a low, neutral, and high-pH solution and then store them for a while before conducting the usual bioassay to see which retained potency best. Still, that's a hard experiment to control all the variables for, but it'll have to do until we can check hard numbers with a chromatography rig (or whatever).
 
Citric acid is an "antioxidant" so I imagine it would work the best, and citric acid has turned blue water (from soaked fungi) back to clear, which was fascinating and suggests something significant is going on there.
 
I'd also imagine that the minimum concentration of alcohol to preserve the actives would be the same as whatever has been determined to be the minimum concentration necessary to prevent microbial growth. I'd guess it's somewhere around 30-40% (60-80 proof) but I suspect that the concentration of alcohol would have no meaningful effect as far as preventing oxidation of the actives is concerned.
 
Oxygen can probably be kept out of the water by storing it under vacuum, or by storing it in bottles that are sealed after you've displaced any air with compressed nitrogen (bottles of compressed, food-grade nitrogen are sold for preserving the flavor of wine after a bottle is opened, so that might be worth looking into).
observations I have made. Extract I have done 90%+ everclear I have store for months at room temp with no bluing or noticeable potency loss. Extracts done with 80 proof Vodka will show signs bluing within minutes. So I think that the percentage of ethanol is important in making extract. However I have noticed that I can do the extract with the everclear and once the extract is done I can dilute with an acidic juice such as orange or cranberry and store for a long time with no bluing.

 

 

Drop some citric acid crystals into the blue liquor (or a shot glass of it, rather) and I bet it turns clear. It would be very interesting to compare the potency of a shot of blue liquor with a shot of it that had been turned clear w/ citric acid (with the doses taken 4-5 days apart, of course). 



#31 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 09 September 2015 - 06:21 PM

The problem is that the actives are only slightly soluble in ethenol. This is why it takes so long. Also it means the solids are probably still full of actives as well. To bad you can't drink methenol, the actives are highly soluble in it.

#32 myancyan

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 10:21 AM

My experience is alcohol and mushrooms don't mix and by that I mean the experience will make me sick. What about you ?
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#33 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 10:57 AM

I agree myan, I don't like to mix alcohol with anything. If I trusted that I could eliminate all methanol, I might be tempted to do an extract with it.

#34 TVCasualty

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:24 PM

My experience is alcohol and mushrooms don't mix and by that I mean the experience will make me sick. What about you ?

 

 

I'd often take a shot of mushroom tincture when I didn't want a shot of Everclear, so I just got some herb tea , put the bag in a cup with the shot of tincture and a bit of lemon juice (fresh-squeezed) if desired, and poured boiling water into the cup as per the usual way to make tea. Strong/spicy teas seem to work best taste-wise IME.

 

The boiling water flashes-off most (if not all) of the alcohol almost immediately (you'll see it bubble up furiously for a half-second or so) and you are left with a decent-tasting, alcohol-free dose.


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#35 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 05:22 PM

It's too bad that ethenol only has a mild solubility for Psilocybin, methenol has a high solubility but you don't want to drink that...

#36 loldebite

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 01:12 PM

Actually, it might depend on the quantity of methanol needed for "enough" psylocibin to be solved in. I remember a paper sayin than 0.1g/L of ethanol is enough to stop methanol to intoxicate the body. Ofc ethanol doesnt cure the acidification methanol causes but it COULD prevend such acidification to ever happen. Not so sure 'bout that thon should be digged a bit more before getting tested. Anyway, if you got stuff that actually cures acidification (hadnt time to search it up yet) you could totally drink SOME methanol. You'd have to drink ethanol regularly enough to have .1g/L in your blood constantly and eventually use the acidification-curing stuff you got and that shall cure the methanol intoication.

That might be complete bullshit, tho, as i aint no doctor or anythin. And searches are required about possible interactions between ethanol/methanol/psylocibin and the acidification-curing stuff.



#37 pharmer

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 06:37 PM

about the question about cost and purity of grain alcohol.

 

as I understand it - distilling grain gets you about 55% alcohol on the first distillation. the remaining 45% is water.

 

ethanol sucks water out of the air the instant it is exposed to air so two things have to happen

 

1 the distillate has to be redistilled to further reduce the amount of water

2 while keeping new air and water from the distillation, output, and storage vessels

 

So, more cost, and more difficulty adds up just getting to 75% purity.

 

IIRC lab grade ethanol is only 95% and accomodations are made in calculations etc when doing experiments with it

 

for our purposes we have to keep that water in mind. in cactus extractions, for example, there is always loss or risk of loss to water in the various phases, and why you hear so much talk about "drying" your solvents

 

BUT

 

like any sword it has two edges

 

that water solubility might be to our advantage. in the example of mushroom extracts the fact that the molecules want to go into water makes getting them into the alcohol easy. some things are not alcohol soluble


Edited by pharmer, 18 December 2015 - 06:53 PM.

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#38 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 08:22 PM

I'm going to stick with water extraction teas as they work well as long as you get out as much oxygen as possible first. A mild vacume, distilled water, and boiling the water for several minutes before adding active materials seems to work wonders.
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#39 TVCasualty

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 10:59 PM

Actually, it might depend on the quantity of methanol needed for "enough" psylocibin to be solved in. I remember a paper sayin than 0.1g/L of ethanol is enough to stop methanol to intoxicate the body. Ofc ethanol doesnt cure the acidification methanol causes but it COULD prevend such acidification to ever happen. Not so sure 'bout that thon should be digged a bit more before getting tested. Anyway, if you got stuff that actually cures acidification (hadnt time to search it up yet) you could totally drink SOME methanol. You'd have to drink ethanol regularly enough to have .1g/L in your blood constantly and eventually use the acidification-curing stuff you got and that shall cure the methanol intoication.

That might be complete bullshit, tho, as i aint no doctor or anythin. And searches are required about possible interactions between ethanol/methanol/psylocibin and the acidification-curing stuff.

 

 

It's very bad mojo to give out bullshit "advice" like that. Don't do it again (it's actually a violation of the site's rules).

 

One of the nice things about mushrooms is their ridiculously-high LD-50 results. Why the hell would you want to eliminate that safety factor by consuming something known to be highly poisonous with them? Actually, don't answer that since there is no good answer, plus it'd probably take me too long to figure out what it actually says.

 

Think first.Then post.

 

Welcome to 'Topia.


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