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On the topic of PG/VG safety


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#1 wharfrat

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 06:13 PM

i quit smoking and i don't vape, but i would like to add to the side effects list in the 101.. most E-Juice contains propylene glycol..  propylene glycol is ototoxic, meaning is is toxic to the inner ear, can cause hearing loss and has been reported in people that vape heavily.



#2 Ares

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 07:24 PM

i quit smoking and i don't vape, but i would like to add to the side effects list in the 101.. most E-Juice contains propylene glycol..  propylene glycol is ototoxic, meaning is is toxic to the inner ear, can cause hearing loss and has been reported in people that vape heavily.

Thanks for the input.  I didn't add any long term effects to the sticky post.  Can you come up with others? We could add them.


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#3 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 03:13 PM

i quit smoking and i don't vape, but i would like to add to the side effects list in the 101.. most E-Juice contains propylene glycol..  propylene glycol is ototoxic, meaning is is toxic to the inner ear, can cause hearing loss and has been reported in people that vape heavily.

 

I only vape cannabis extracts (THC/CBD oils, extracted with supercritical CO2) and the cartridges I use contain the extract mixed with a bit of coconut oil (no propylene glycol or glycerin). I think that might be becoming a trend, at least for cannabis extracts intended to be vaped.


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#4 wharfrat

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 05:14 PM

 

i quit smoking and i don't vape, but i would like to add to the side effects list in the 101.. most E-Juice contains propylene glycol..  propylene glycol is ototoxic, meaning is is toxic to the inner ear, can cause hearing loss and has been reported in people that vape heavily.

 

I only vape cannabis extracts (THC/CBD oils, extracted with supercritical CO2) and the cartridges I use contain the extract mixed with a bit of coconut oil (no propylene glycol or glycerin). I think that might be becoming a trend, at least for cannabis extracts intended to be vaped.

 

i have yet to vape extracts, very interested though, seems much cleaner.



#5 Zen_

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 08:20 AM

 

i quit smoking and i don't vape, but i would like to add to the side effects list in the 101.. most E-Juice contains propylene glycol..  propylene glycol is ototoxic, meaning is is toxic to the inner ear, can cause hearing loss and has been reported in people that vape heavily.

 

I only vape cannabis extracts (THC/CBD oils, extracted with supercritical CO2) and the cartridges I use contain the extract mixed with a bit of coconut oil (no propylene glycol or glycerin). I think that might be becoming a trend, at least for cannabis extracts intended to be vaped.

 

 

I have heard this before and all the research I do states that coco oil should be avoided at all costs. What coco are you using?

 

Specifically, any oil that is used for cooking should never be used in vaping/inhalation.  <-- That link says "ANY OIL" not just cooking.

 

"You do not and must never smoke or vaporize this kind of oil, because that could cause you to develop Exogenous Lipoid Pneumonia (ELP)."

 

A buddy of mine is really into the industry and mentioned that peeps were using coco oil as well, I haven't been able to deduce in any amount of research what these folks are *actually* using, and all roads lead to ELP.

 

"As knowledge about the effects of vaporizing propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin increase—many believe that vaporizing vegetable glycerin is safer, though this assumption is based on ingestion only and not inhalation —people are reaching out to other solvents to minimize health effects and still deliver the intended effect. One solvent people are experimenting with for cannabis concentrates is MCT oil, short for medium chain triglycerides, which is refined from coconut oil. Though no official studies have been conducted on the health effects of vaporizing MCT oil as a solvent, it is understood in the food industry that MCT oil is not intended for cooking because it has an extremely low smoking point. Before thinking you can use an oil with a high smoking point, like peanut oil, understand also that it requires an even greater temperature to vaporize and that it breaks down to carcinogens as well when heated above its smoking point, which is required for the intended effect of vaporization."

 

 

Link

 

 

So,... what, specifically, are you using out of curiosity. 


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#6 TVCasualty

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 01:38 PM

Well damn.
 
I'm making some inquiries.

 In the meantime...

 

I have heard this before and all the research I do states that coco oil should be avoided at all costs. What coco are you using?
 
Specifically, any oil that is used for cooking should never be used in vaping/inhalation.  <-- That link says "ANY OIL" not just cooking.

It appears the oil used in the cartridges is the MCT-fraction of coconut oil, and from what I've seen so far MCT oil is not recommended for cooking (which may mean it's actually worse than coconut oil).

 

One thing that's really annoying is having to wade through countless pages of "miracle health discovery!"-type sites that are long on hype and short on useful facts. The article from kindreviews.com was particularly informative (thanks!), and from it I got the impression that MCT oil is quite likely not ideal (and may present health risks) but that propylene glycol and glycerin are definitely worse.

 

The most prudent approach appears to be sticking with smoking/vaping good ol' fashioned buds and straight hash (which isn't really a surprise, but damn those vape cartridges are convenient! I might just reserve them for occasional use, e.g. road trips, airplane rides, and in restaurants/bars...). 


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#7 riseabovethought

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 12:17 PM

I've only ever vaped flowers, but the extract sounds well, I guess Im undecided about it.  

Im saving up for The Mighty vaporizer but its 400 bones.  The extract does intrigue tho.

https://mycotopia.ne...e-vape-of-2015/

 

Heres a conversation about a lab making the extract and notice at the end how he states the final product is smokable on its own.  I wonder why they put in the coconut oil at all.  It seems unnecessary except maybe to step on it and thin it out?

 

Dabs 2.0: CO2 Extraction for Cannabis Concentrates

BY CESAR SORIANO · TUE MAR 25, 2014
 
 
 
As of May 1st, a new regulation will be in effect for the state of Colorado requiring all concentrates to be tested. There are several dispensaries that might suffer if they don't change their methods. We interviewed Alex Cahoj, president of Evolab and John Kruse, Evolab's lead extractor here in Denver to find out some of the facts behind the CO2 concentrates, and debunk some myths circulating about the process.

 

What made you get into CO2?
John: It kind of happened by chance. I was working for another extraction company doing CO2 here in Denver. I learned how to run the machine and just kind of fell in love with the process.

Alex: The safety, and selectivity of the extraction is what I liked the most. You have a lot more control over it versus the hydrocarbon set ups. Plus, I’m not into poisoning people.

Can you briefly explain the process?
John: You take CO2 as a gas or a liquid and pressurize it to the "Super Critical" state -- anything above 1078 PSI -- but you don’t have to have super-high pressure. As you pass the gas through it will pull the oils, waxes and other materials out of the plant. Certain parameters will preserve more of your terpenes and others strip more material.

Where do you see the movement going due to the 100 PPM max rule?
Alex: A lot of people are getting into CO2 now because of regulations. That being said, we were there from the beginning. We had that standard internally, morally, ethically. It's the only thing we think about really. That was/is our challenge. It's not easy.

What's the minimum amount of cannabis flowers you would need to produce a batch, and what are the yields?
John: With CO2 cannabis extractions, your usually looking at around eight percent yield being pretty average, and 12 percent being pretty good. You can use CO2 and strip everything out. The problem begins when you start running higher pressure, you’re going to get everything else out too: undesirables such as chlorophylls, etc. All you want is your cannabinoids and terpenes. With great material we are getting 10 to 12 percent, with machine trim we’re getting about five or six percent. Machine trimmed material is darker because the chlorophyll in the plant cells are cut by the blades when wet trimmed.

Are there yield differences from trim and nugs? How about quality?
John: I see higher yields typically with the smaller buds and sweet leaf trim. The nug runs do have great material available there, but part of the percentage of that nug weight is going to be stem weight, plus some other things. When you’re dealing with sweet leaf trim and small buds you have material latent with crystals. Nug runs usually work better with butane and the hydrocarbon processing. With CO2 extraction we get a lot of terpenes naturally with any type of trim we run. For most dispensaries, the flower is still more valuable in its flower form, and the cost of the concentrates hasn't really caught up to that yet.

Can you de-wax CO2?
John: Yes, we can separate oils from waxes. CO2, is selective, you can set the parameters as much as you need. If you just want to pull the waxes, you can pull them out and leave your oils separate. With CO2, you don't have to winterize to get the wax out, which keeps our product cleaner and purer than the competition.

Will molds, mildews, residuals or contaminants show up in concentrated form? Does the CO2 process get rid of all that?
Alex: When you run Super Critical CO2, microbial bacteria, mildews and molds are destroyed. The things you have to watch out and screen for, and what the State of Colorado Marijuana Enforcement Division will be screening for, are pesticide concentrations, residuals and chemical additives. If somebody sprayed some pesticide right before harvest, it's going to be a problem.

Would the taste and color leech into the CO2 concentrate from using a lot of fan leaves?
John: Water leaves, big sun leaves, big hand-sized fan leaves are a no-no pretty much for anything but edibles. Fan leaves still have quality cannabinoid content, and they are also good for juicing. There might be a larger content of THCA and CBD in the fan leaves, it's just not as efficient. If we're going to get a three percent yield, and it takes the same amount of time to run it, it just doesn't make sense.

How has the process been refined since you started? How have you guys evolved since you started making CO2?
John: Huge, huge learning curve from where we started. In CO2 extractions, one worry is getting out your water concentrations. That's a huge challenge. The methodology in doing that is where we’ve evolved. We have always avoided using solvents. We don’t winterize our waxes because it involves using ethanol. For us, it has been an evolution of finding techniques that are used in similar industries, which we can apply to our product. There are other industries that separate oils and waters. For us, it was kind of stepping back, looking at these methodologies, and trying to figure out what fits our product and standards.

Alex: We recently started expanding our product line and we have amazing vape pens. Fundamentally, we wanted our vape pen quality to be the same as our dab oil. It was just a matter of waiting for the technology to catch up in the vape pen market. We're not going to sacrifice the purity of our product just so we can make a bunch of vape pens to increase sales. We decided to wait for some better products to come on the market, and we’ve found better cartridges that allow us to vape our oil as-is. It's a benefit to us, especially when testing starts and you see our cartridges aren’t cut with anything. Not only are our THC percentages higher because of that, but we are also meeting the new regulatory standards required by law.

CO2 in edibles? Anything going on in the edibles market with your company?
Alex: We are really excited to announce that we will be putting Evolab oil into the edible line we are creating this year: Evolife. We currently extract oil for a few edibles companies in town and they swear by our CO2 oil because it is raw, pure and without residual solvents. Our oil lacks the chemical aftertaste that some BHO, propane and ethanol extractions can give to edibles, so our clients prefer to infuse with CO2.

Has any CO2 product been used in topicals?
John: Not yet. We’ve seen salve products made with BHO, but not yet with CO2. The cool thing is that it can and will be with our future product lines. The same wax we get from the extractions can be used as the wax in topicals and balms. That de-waxed material is not garbage. You just need the right equipment, and know the right way to activate all the material left behind.

How is Evolab getting better?
Alex: The game is changing for us now because we will be testing every batch of trim, every run, all the wax content, all the terpene content. We have an onsite PhD chemist and have acquired equipment so that we can really start to dial in all the data. From how much moisture content, to how much wax content, how much of each cannabinoid, how many terpenes, flavonoids, paraffins and waxes, all of that we are actually going to be able to measure and give the consumer that information. We are also learning from the trim that we outsource, what to expect before the extraction has even started. That's huge.

CO2 Wax and Shatter?
John: It's just more processes. With CO2 Shatters, we are getting into the 80-90 percent THC range. You really purify it. You’re taking everything that's not THC out. The more things that you take out that block the crystallization process, the easier it is to crystallize it. The downside is that there's pretty much nothing else left except for THC. Everything else is removed so that the crystallization process can occur.

How CO2 compare to BHO in test results?
John: There's virtually no difference, it really just depends on what your secondary practices are. We can get up to 95 percent THC if we wanted to. Raw on average is going to come out at around 55-65 percent, fresh out the extractor. With other processes, we can bump it to 70-75 percent. It's basically removes the water. You’re getting waxes and other inert material out which make the potency go up. In BHO you have to winterize and other things. With anything, you have to do the secondary processes to get that concentration level up.

How do you keep your terpenes intact and preserve the best flavors while not getting the PSI too high? What would say would be the best range?
John: We will never tell. Terpenes are volatile, all the data can be found by anyone. You will always lose some. Just being in the environment you lose terpenes. With concentrates, you really wouldn't want to store them out in the open for very long.

Alex: By avoiding high heat, by avoiding winterization, fractionating with better means mainly by avoiding exposure. Try to keep it out of the light and definitely don't leave your concentrate exposed to air very long, and keeping it under constant temperatures preserves what you've extracted.

How is consuming CO2 internally such as eating it alone or infusing it into tinctures?
Alex: There is variability based on whether we activate the cannabinoids or not. For example, if you use THCA you won't feel any psychoactive effect, but you will reap the medicinal benefits. We can activate it and create a THC product for tinctures, and it will have a different effect. We've done them both. This type of product is definitely in demand.

How pure is your product using CO2?
Alex: We've been told we can just use food grade CO2, the same CO2 that is in a soda machine or beer tap. The tank costs about $40. We've taken the extra measure and get the same instrument grade CO2 used in dental hygiene, hospitals, that tank is about $120. The difference between food grade, and instrumental grade CO2, is that food grade claims to be 98 percent free of contaminants. It could be hydrocarbons, it could be water in the tank, it could be rust in the tank, it could be any number of things. The instrumental grade that we use for our CO2 extractions is 99.9999 percent clean. We've been told that the customer is not going to notice, taste or feel the difference, so why waste the money? Fundamentally, I would rather have 99.9999 percent of assurance for me and my customers. That philosophy runs through and through in every sector of our business. We're not trying to bullshit anyone. It's what we live by. For example, on our premises, we have 160 solar panels. We power 40 lights and our extractor with solar, being ecologically conscious and providing a safe clean product is very important to us.

John: When you dab CO2, that sizzle you hear is the sound of any latent water remaining from the extraction vaporizing on your dome/nail. It's what we call Bound Water. It's water attached to the THC or wax, or some molecule. It's still bound up. It hasn't come out. The heat unbinds it, and unbinding can be kind of violent depending on the amount of water. You'll see and hear the popping, but we work diligently developing new ways to remove the H20. There are no residuals, no additives, no solvents in evolab oil. It is raw, pure, and clean. I dab a lot. And the reason why I like CO2, why I stuck with it, is because I appreciate the cleanliness. The cleanliness and flavor of our CO2 definitely shines through compared to the other products on the dab market.

What do you need in order to make CO2?

John: The CO2 extractor itself and the equipment to do any of the secondary processes, if wanted. Some people have vacuum ovens, some have centrifuges, distillation columns and RotoVapes. BHO extractors are required to do the secondary processes for us its optional. You wouldn't want to dab BHO in the collection dish. Honestly, the product right out of our machine is an amazing raw smoke-able product.

http://www.hightimes...s-concentrates 


Edited by riseabovethought, 10 September 2015 - 12:36 PM.


#8 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 10:02 PM

The high pressure container required to perform a co2 extraction, or the use of a retrofitted scuba tank is rather expensive and/or dangerous to build yourself.

But, for 100 bucks you can buy a home mini still ( or build one) and use the dry ice and freezer method. Here is how it works:

Wet Trim and/or bud is placed into a Colman cooler along with peices of dry ice and placed into a chest freezer. After 10 minutes that trim will be frozen solid and all the cells will have burst.

Everclear that has been cooled to 20 below in that same freezer is then poured into the frozen trim and mixed along with the dry ice chunks. Then just leave it in the chest freezer overnight.

Next day dump this stuff through a filter. The everclear along with all the oils terpines and waxes will filter out as liquid. The water that is frozen solid will remain in the plant material.

The everclear us now placed into the still and recovered into jars for the next time. The oils and waxes remain in the still ready for you to Dab or vape.

If you use dried trim and/or bud you can completely skip the freeze stages.

Safe, and much cheaper than a co2 extractor.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 11 September 2015 - 10:04 PM.


#9 happy4nic8r

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 06:53 PM

Not sure I know what PG and VG stand for. Pretty good and very good come to mind.

 

I have used a Vaped pen, very affordable, and they send out replacement parts regularly on their one year unconditional warranty.

 

You can't use these for buds, only for oils, extracts.

 

The CO2 extraction is what they use in the labs to extract the oils from the cannabis and put in the Mass Spec. No heat is key.

 

I wouldn't smoke something extracted with alcohol, or any oil. If you could do it without any heat it might work, but heating will convert it to less potent cannabanoids. Good for topicals and edibles, but not smokables.

 

Propane, Butane, (Methane tastes kind of shitty!) they all have pretty clean product.

 

It's really a LOT easier on your lungs to vape. My wife's cough is greatly reduced from the emphysema like hack to a walking pneumonia croup,

 

I would recommend she quit, but that gets me sanctioned.



#10 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 10:44 PM

Pg is Propylene glycol, which you may recognize as antifreeze that you put in the radiator of your car, but it is also a food additive and is used in almost all oral pharmecuticles. It is very safe in humans, and toxic amounts are so high as to be ridiculous. I would actually be surprised if there were a safer vape additive other than water itself.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 12 September 2015 - 10:44 PM.


#11 Zen_

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 04:29 PM

So I'm not sure why anyone would bust out 400$ on a vape these days, unless there is some special need or medical reason.

 

For most folks the eleaf models above, if you want to vape hash oil (regardless of how it was made), will be more than effective. For those not in the scene I'll highlight a few things.

  1. You can vape straight herb, but why? and ew. and pita.
  2. You can vape bubblehash, finger hash, kief, and any other resin. Still, why?
  3. You can vape BHO, CO2, or Alcohol extracts. (even rosin, or convert the above to)

In order to vape you need one of two things, a "Dripper" to dull out your hash balls, dabs, or other extracts. You place the ball on the coils and vape for a good amount of time before needing to reload another dab. Straight up, if you will.

 

The second way is that you can take your extractions and suspend them in Propylene Glycol (PG) and/or a mixture of Vegetable Glycerin (VG). This method will create a mixture that can be used in 99.9% of all "e-cig" vaporizers. The issue here is that you need to use the right stuff to get the suspension to be stable enough to not separate or settle out.

 

The current method of choice is to use EJ Mix, which is a mixture of PEG, PG, and VG to gain the appropriate proportions and a stable mixture. It's easy and it works. You can use pure PG but not VG. Extracts will need to be heated slightly and emulsified if you want to use straight VG or an inappropriate mixture of the above. This is a pain in the ass and really only possible with the right equipment to create an emulsion. If you use straight VG or an incorrect mixture, and you do not emulsify, then your mix will begin to separate over time.

 

If you use the EJ Mix then your work is easy. Slightly heat, mix, stir, stir, stir -- vape.

 

Most of the flavorings, if you're into that, will be a mixture of PG/VG so you need to take that into consideration when using the EJ Mix as you may thin your concentration if you start mixing in flavors ad-hoc and not thinking about your proportions. In general, however, traditional e-cig flavors can be mixed in to create a tasty and even more masked vape experience. Public consumption of this type will be largely unnoticed, even if a LEO is standing in your cloud. (I wouldn't try it, but it has worked) ;)

 

Don't have an extract? Concentrate? No Supercritical CO2 machine handy? Don't want to risk blowing your shed up? No problem.

 

Have you ever heard of "Rosin" making? It's an old school method that's regaining popularity. Essentially you get two flat metal plates and heat them to about 250-280*. Then you take a small nickel sized bud and gently squeeze it into a ball and place between parchment paper. Then you heat, under as much pressure as you can muster, that ball in between the hot plates. Hold for about 15-20 seconds and if you did it right you should have liquified and expelled most of the terpenes and trichomes off the exterior of the bud. You can do 2nd and 3rd runs.

 

This method, if done right, will produce a solvent-less extraction that's the same as "shatter" made by CO2 or Butane. It also has, under the right pressure and conditions, as much or more return than typical extraction methods. It helps to use the best and most crystally bud you have available. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

Rosin seems to be slightly less stable than using solvent based methods and may auto-budder on you if not stored in the freezer. Otherwise it's the same. Oh, and you can hold your hits in because there are no solvents present.

 

Essentially, if you have a handful of dank nuggets, you can rosin them, take that shatter and mix it with EJMix, and in about 20 minutes have yourself a tank full of flavored, publicly consumable, masked, vape goodness; and all with the eleaf and a kanger sub-ohm tank. The mini will run you about 50-60$ total, and the larger about double that. For the extractions you need a flat 2.5" hair straightening iron and a force multiplying hand vise. (30$ for each)

 

For all the folks douching out on PG and VG -- both are generally recognized as safe (GRASS) by the FDA and are in so many of our products it would make your head spin. I'm not saying it's *actually* safe, but for the most part in normal healthy people it shouldn't cause any issues. Some people that I know get headaches from too much PG in their mixture. Others may experience other issues. Many many many many will not though. Try and use only if it's right for you.

 

IF it's not right for you, then stick with the dripper system and just use the raw extraction. The downside here is that public consumption becomes noticeable. a) you have to carry around reloads vs just a tank of "e-juice", and b) it smells like hash vs fruity berry pebbles or whatever flavor you like.

 

Note: It appears to be generally recommended to stay away from using coconut or any other "oil" used for cooking to inhale. MCT oil seems to be used by some and is made from coconut oil, but why? PG/VG are nearly if not completely inert. Inhaling cooking oil or derivatives is your choice.

 

In general, though, you should be able to make yourself shatter and then dab that direct or mix with pg/vg/flavor to gain an e-cig juice that can be used in any e-cig vaporizer. The whole deal from flower to vape shouldn't take more than an hour if it's your first time, and <20 minutes once you get it down.

 

Now go forth and vape...



#12 Zen_

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 08:12 PM

In the Hand Check thread some folks went off topic and started to discuss the efficacy and safety of PG and VG mixtures. Those conversations have been moved here. 

 

Carry on. :)


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#13 wharfrat

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 10:00 PM

ty Zen.. I brought this up because i have lost my hearing in my left ear due to Menieres disease, and have had the rest of the balance organ in that ear killed off by an ototoxic antibiotic called Gentamicin.. so i am in the know, which led me to an article about a well known person temporarily loosing their hearing due to juice containing propylene glycol.. just thought.. #TheMoreYouKnow


Edited by wharfrat, 13 September 2015 - 10:01 PM.

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#14 Zen_

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Posted 13 September 2015 - 10:11 PM

^^ I'm sorry to hear that, and sincerely, no pun intended. :)

 

This all goes with my saying:

 

Some people that I know get headaches from too much PG in their mixture. Others may experience other issues. Many many many many will not though. Try and use only if it's right for you.

 

 

It sounds like you're one of the few who have a reaction to it. A close friend gets headaches. In both instances I would say to stay away from it.


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#15 MycoDani

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Posted 14 September 2015 - 05:08 AM


https://en.m.wikiped...afety_in_humans

^^^This gives a good rundown on the efficacy of PG.

It's also in everything and I mean everything from cosmetics to e juice. I'm sorry wharf that bad stuff happened to you but I personally believe it's a safe option or the best option we have for now.

#16 TVCasualty

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Posted 14 September 2015 - 02:45 PM

Pg is Propylene glycol, which you may recognize as antifreeze that you put in the radiator of your car, but it is also a food additive and is used in almost all oral pharmecuticles. It is very safe in humans, and toxic amounts are so high as to be ridiculous. I would actually be surprised if there were a safer vape additive other than water itself.

 

The stuff we put in our car's radiator is ethylene glycol, not propylene glycol. Propylene glycol is also an antifreeze (and more people are starting to use it in their cars), but is used mostly for winterizing the plumbing in boats and RVs since it's not toxic.

 

It's also used in some types of fog machines for fog/smoke effects, which makes me curious if mixing hash oil into it and loading it into a fog machine could "hot box" an enclosed space with psychoactive vapor... (or liven-up the audience at a show, lol). But that would take a lot of hash oil, so since I don't live in a med state I know I won't be trying that anytime soon.


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#17 niemandgeist

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Posted 14 September 2015 - 03:03 PM

I only vape occasionally. Just because it's debatable about long-term safety. I figure in moderation it can't hurt much. I hardly ever do it anymore, though.



#18 riseabovethought

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 02:05 PM

*Archive material

 

Thank you Zen.  I think you just saved me at least 200 out of that 400 I was saving up, plus new skillz!  Woo hoo!  My only question is how do you not crush the hair straightener with the hand vice?  And where do i get parchment paper?  Thanks for dropping that knowledge above.  I think it helps fills a void around here in general to have this kind of information and will help a lot of people.  Good stuff!


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#19 Zen_

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 05:43 PM

I'll try and post something more how-to. I'll have the parts soon to do a diy build on an enail; again at a fraction of the retail cost.



#20 MrGumball

MrGumball

    show me do it

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 07:20 PM

And where do i get parchment paper?  

 

Check the baking section of your local grocer OR a restaurant supply store.


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