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Coir Only Bulk Invitro Bag


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#1 MLBjammer

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 07:58 AM

I know that there's always been a lot of discussion in the OMC on the subject of whether or not coir is nutritious.  I contend that it is, after using it on and off, to grow Sandman-style invitro bags.

 

I also contend that the trick to using coir successfully as a primary substrate is to never leach it.  I sort of stumbled upon this observation myself after reading of growers being disappointed with coir's performance in bulk/rez-effect grows.  I always scratched my head, thinking, "Why would anyone be disappointed with coir?"  But then I realized that many folks were preparing coir by leaching it, as one would in preparing most dung.  Hell, if you read most of the coir prep teks online, most of them involve some sort of leaching in the tek.  

 

And I believe that the leaching process removes some of the nutritional value of coir.

 

Here are some pictures of a current coir-only bag of mine.  It's Redboy cubensis strain, grown with 3 quarts of oats spawned to 9 quarts of coir.   I expanded one brick of coir with about 3 quarts of water, which seems to come out about right moisture-wise every time. I sterilized the coir in quarts jars for 30 minutes at 15 PSI, colonized the bag on a shelf in my grow room, exposed to regular light cycles from day one.  Colonization took about two weeks, and the only air exchange was provided by fans in the room.

 

This flush amounted to 440 grams wet, which is 44 grams (roughly) dry.  I can normally harvest around a quarter pound dry from one of these bags, which isn't bad from a substance that supposedly contains no nutritional value.

20150919_073151_resized.jpg 20150919_073301_resized.jpg 20150919_073359_resized.jpg 20150919_073452_resized.jpg


Edited by MLBjammer, 19 September 2015 - 08:06 AM.

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#2 Heirloom Spores

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 09:08 AM

MLB nice grow. what kind of bags would you suggest?
can I use locally bought plastic bags like very large zip lock or oven bags?

why sterilize the coir instead of pasteurize?

thanks


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#3 hyphaenation

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 09:09 AM

That's awesome! Have you ever tried coir sub with no grain-spawn? I think people are saying coir itself with no grain spawn of any kind doesn't promote fruiting...like say coir 2 coir transfer or LC added to coir grow but nothing itself nutritous added. Love to see you or anyone show that. Mate0x tried as I recall and got no fruits. More research needed.

Edited by hyphaenation, 19 September 2015 - 09:15 AM.

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#4 Heirloom Spores

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:29 AM

that's interesting hyphae, I was going to ask how side by side coir , dung grows compare.

I have read/ been told that water pasteurization doesn't leach out nutrients from  dung , but find that hard to believe.
after looking at the dirty water, I think it must have lost nutrients.

so I pasteurized some dung ( and vermiculite ) water to field capacity  in plastic bags to see how they perform.

so far the tubs are doing great , really fast growth. the spawn I used was grown on wheat in QT jars.



EDIT- I searched and found nothing much on the plant nutritional value of coir.

                               like to know more
                   
                                                                               peace

 


Edited by Heirloom Spores, 19 September 2015 - 10:57 AM.

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#5 morfin-56

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 11:05 AM

I love coir/swear by it.
Substrates don't feel complete without it.
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#6 Hash_Man

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 11:28 AM

 Colonization took about two weeks, and the only air exchange was provided by fans in the room.

 

 

Excellent bro . . one thing I haven't tried was the big bags . .  I have done just coir 50/50 WBS spawn in bags with great results 


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#7 Heirloom Spores

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 12:26 PM

great thread jammer, I got my answers to bags.

I need to take prints for the future and find invitro might be a very clean method.
I want to have spores forever, so I need to print invitro ,is a way.

I see it as easy as filling ( prepared ) bags,  pasteurizing , mixing with spawn then harvesting. as easy as can be.


EDIT- I love coir for its many uses. I on occasion mix it into a substrate.
         my dung is free. coir costs as does grain.

 


Edited by Heirloom Spores, 19 September 2015 - 12:32 PM.

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#8 MycoRunner

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 01:36 PM

I'm just starting to use coir, partly because I HATE vermiculite. I was thinking about trying to sub coir for vermiculite in casing material, because it has such a fluffy consistency. Do you think the nutrients in it would make it a bad casing material when mixed with peat?


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#9 Microbe

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 01:53 PM

Not trying to hijack your thread or complicate it as the purpose was intended to demonstrate that coir is very simple and basic but can produce great results.

I uses to debate with a good friend of mine who is MIA by the way but i used to see coir as only being used primarily for a moisture barrier and or a reservoir.

I believe this was in part to my lack of knowledge around coir and all the mainstream info i have read about coir being a inferior source of nutrition for mycelium.

I followed the 50:50 coir tek and while the name could be very misleading as far as ratios go but did produce some impressive results. Speed was the first thing i noticed, this in my opinion is related to the lower nutrient content in the substrate but was able to support multiple healthy flushes.

This lead me to conduct some research and let me tell you, there is limited scientific data supporting the nutrient content of coir. I did however come across a article where a few analysis were done to determine the available carbon and nitrogen that was in coir. Diffrent brands hand variable results with huge gaps in values making it difficult to place standard values of nitrogen and carbon on coir as a substrate.

What i do know from experience is that lower nitrogen contents produce faster growth reuslts with some sacrifice to size of fruits but not necessarily impacting overall yields across the first few flushes.

In fact i see significantly increased volume of fruits across a single fruiting surface more consistently then i do on my 3-4 ingredient substrates.

There are some tricks that improve greater results but require sterilization of the coir instead of pasteurization and is somewhat more practical when fruiting in bags but that is to hydrate your coir with your grain soak, steep, or simmer water.

The second trick or tip is to use gypsum, besides the calcium carbonate (i think thats the mineral in it) and please correct me if i wrong on the mineral name but more importantly it increases the efficiency of the water transfer throughout the substrate resulting in even moisture and absorption across the substrate.

I know this is about coir only but i use a 50:50 coir/straw ration and spawn at a rate 0f 1-2 to 1-5 and will put a coir straw sub up against any manure based and or super sub additives out there.

Another thing that drives the stock up for me with coir is the simplicity of handling and storage. I was hooked up with a killer site that has the best prices on quality coir and in covenant size bricks. Even cheaper then the 5 kilo blocks i use to chip away at and measure out.

Coir is underrated and even after the results duplicated over and over using the 50:50 coir tek.

Maybe the commerical genetics have resulted in increase results by being repeatedly exposed to it. I always did and still do believe that you can train your culture to adapt to its enviroment and food source.

None the less great thread jammer and those are excellent results demonstrating that Coir is a major player in home cultivation from a nutritional role to price, availability, and ease of use.

Thank you good work as usual my friend!
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#10 Microbe

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 01:55 PM

I'm just starting to use coir, partly because I HATE vermiculite. I was thinking about trying to sub coir for vermiculite in casing material, because it has such a fluffy consistency. Do you think the nutrients in it would make it a bad casing material when mixed with peat?

Outside of cakes and maybe a casing layer, i think we can do fine without verm. Coir has more optimal eater retention and release then verm does. The only reason it is used in 50:50 teks is to absorb extra moisture or allow for a easily hydration process. There is less room for error when using straight coir but verm is a security blanket imo when working with bulk substrates.

Edit: also i want to add that when i reference the 50:50 tek, im talking about ratios and coir being the bulk of the sub. I am absolutely not a advocate of the hot water bucket pasteurize method. Outside of my first bag run and few tubs in the very beginning, it was that process that resulted in underperforming tubs.

Everything gets a 4-6 hour steam pasteurization unless grain water is used. I have always had the best luck when i pasteurize versus using the bucket tek or even versus sterilization.

Edited by Microbe77, 19 September 2015 - 02:12 PM.

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#11 Heirloom Spores

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 02:10 PM

gypsum = calcium sulfate

verm holds water , coir holds water.  they can be interchanged as part of a substrate mix.

their many reasons to chose one over the other.

I think coir has some mineral content?


Edited by Heirloom Spores, 19 September 2015 - 02:13 PM.

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#12 Microbe

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 02:18 PM

gypsum = calcium sulfate

verm holds water , coir holds water. they can be interchanged as part of a substrate mix.

their many reasons to chose one over the other.

I knew it was calcium something and yes i agree the both retain water but coir IMO is more optimal. I imagine verm comes more into play as the coir becomes dry. Coir has less surface area and does release water more efficiently which is also its con i guess. I feel that water can flow more freely throughout a sub with little to know verm. I cant explain it, maybe equivalent to resistances when measuring electrical current. Dont get me wrong, i use verm and allthough i havent ran a project in awhile, i was and will continue to phase it out complelty.

Hope i wasnt breaking in and coming off as verm has no place in cultivation as people have been using it for decades probably longer. This is my opinion as it relates to using one or the other or coir or verm.
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#13 morfin-56

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 02:20 PM

I used to case with 50% coir 25% verm 25% dirt and got hummoungous piles of mushrooms every flush, 4 flushes per tub. Would usually throw them out before they even got contamed and they would usually flush a 5th time outside.
I like a lot of coir in my substrate too, usually 50% of the mix not including spawn.

Edited by morfin-56, 19 September 2015 - 02:25 PM.


#14 happy4nic8r

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 02:54 PM

has anyone tried using coir instead of vermiculite in pf jars? don't see why that wouldn't work as well, if it works later on......



#15 Microbe

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 03:58 PM

has anyone tried using coir instead of vermiculite in pf jars? don't see why that wouldn't work as well, if it works later on......

I think the coir mixed in with the BRF would perform great. However dunking and rolling in coir would require more misting IMO. misting has never bothered me. Hell i prefer to mist over dunking until after the 2nd and sometimes 3rd flush.

I will certainly say that cutting composted cow manure is better done with verm. I have tried a coir and manure substrate and i wasnt happy with the texture one bit. It was hard to get that nice fluffy texture. I have had better results when using Black Kow versus the commodity brands but i would say verm hands down is better for cutting cow manure.

#16 Microbe

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 04:14 PM

Here are a few reads on coir, 1 is more of a marketing description with intent to sell while the other is more scientific. Both indicate to me that coir is a very great ingredient for bulk substrates.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3741572/

https://fertilefibre...erties-of-coir/

Hey jammer if you feel im cluttering up your thread just tell me to knock it off. I just want to support your message and help some who are sceptical about coir and its benefits to home cultivation. Have you any experience with making coir compost? I really want to give it a try but it takes the simplicity out of working with coir for sure though.

#17 hyphaenation

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 04:58 PM

Just a point of clarification, I use coir often myself. The the only skeptisism I have is whether coir all by itself, with zero grain spawn or other additives (100% coir) is nutritious and can support a crop of shrooms. I say this because of the statement in the first post:

"I know that there's always been a lot of discussion in the OMC on the subject of whether or not coir is nutritious. I contend that it is,"

Is it nutrious enough to grow a crop from nothing but coir substrate?
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#18 morfin-56

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 05:22 PM

Cubensis probably not, but wouldn't a woodlover break down the cellulose and hemicellulose in coir and be able to grow on that?
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#19 Microbe

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 06:09 PM

The problem with coir by itself is finding a inoculate that doesnt introduce any nutes for experimental purposes. Im not sure how this could be done. Coir has just enough nutes to cause the myc to rip through the substrate seeming out more nutrition while grain spawn provides the nutrient level for several flushes. I feel that coir would support a flush by itself assuming we can get the inoculate right......
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#20 hyphaenation

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 06:27 PM

Thats why i mentioned coir2coir transfer... Say you have a jar with an inch of colonized grain... You dump in a layer of some inches of sterilized/pasteurized coir, without shaking let the myc run into the 100% coir. When colonized scoop just coir into a recipient jar containing only coir. Colonize and aytempt to fruit....and yes we're talking cubes here.

Thanks bammer for entertaining this discussion.
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