Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

THE MESSAGE OF THE CRUCIFIXION


  • Please log in to reply
62 replies to this topic

#1 dpwishy

dpwishy

    A Fisher Of Souls

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 1,976 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:29 PM

My quote on the bottom of all my posts come from A course in miracles, those words start the text.
 
I think today, when understood, may be one of the most holy and amazing days of the year. For in this day, the sons of God were given freedom. Because this path was lived for us, we don't have too. I did not write these words, it comes from A course in miracles chapter 6, section 1, titled "THE MESSAGE OF THE CRUCIFIXION"
 
--------ACIM 6:1 ------
 

For teaching purposes, let us consider the crucifixion again. We have not dwelt on it before, because of its fearful connotations. The only emphasis we laid upon it was that it was NOT a form of punishment. Nothing, however, can be really explained in negative terms only. There is a positive interpretation of the crucifixion which is wholly devoid of fear, and therefore wholly benign in what it teaches, if it is properly understood. The crucifixion is nothing more than an extreme example. Its value, like the value of any teaching device, lies solely in the kind of learning it facilitates. It can be, and has been, misunderstood. This is only because the fearful are apt to perceive fearfully.

 

I have already told you that you can always call on me to share my decision and thus MAKE IT STRONGER. I also told you that the crucifixion was the last foolish journey that the Sonship need take, and that it should mean RELEASE from fear to anyone who understands it. While we emphasized only the resurrection before, the purpose of the crucifixion and how it actually LED to the resurrection was not clarified at that time. Nevertheless, it has a definite contribution to make to your own lives, and if you will consider it WITHOUT fear, it will help you understand your own role as teachers.
 
You have reacted for years AS IF you were being crucified. This is a marked tendency of the separated ones, who always refuse to consider what they have done TO THEMSELVES. Projection means anger, anger fosters assault, and assault promotes fear. The real meaning of the crucifixion lies in the APPARENT intensity of the assault of some of the Sons of God upon another. This, of course, is impossible, and must be fully understood AS an impossibility. In fact, unless it IS fully understood as only that, I cannot serve as a real model for learning.
 
Assault can ultimately be made ONLY on the body. There is little doubt that one BODY can assault another, and can even destroy it. Yet if destruction ITSELF is impossible, then anything that is destructible cannot be REAL. Therefore, its destruction does NOT justify anger. To the extent to which you believe that it DOES, you must be accepting false premises AND TEACHING THEM TO OTHERS. The message which the crucifixion was intended to teach was that it is not necessary to perceive ANY form of assault in persecution because you cannot BE persecuted. If you respond with anger you must be equating yourself with the destructible, and are therefore regarding yourself insanely.
 
I have made it perfectly clear that I am like you and you are like me, but our fundamental equality can be demonstrated only through joint DECISION. You are free to perceive yourselves as persecuted if you choose. You might remember, however, when you DO choose to react that way, that I WAS persecuted as the world judges, and did NOT share this evaluation for myself. And because I did not share it I did not STRENGTHEN it. I therefore offered a DIFFERENT interpretation of attack, and one which I DO want to share with you. If you will BELIEVE it, you will help me to TEACH it.
 
We have said before,“As you teach so shall you learn. ”If you react as if you are persecuted, you are TEACHING persecution. This is not a lesson which the Sons of God should WANT to teach if they are to realize their own salvation. Rather teach your own perfect immunity, which IS the truth in you, and KNOW that it cannot be assailed. Do not protect it yourselves, or you have believed that it IS assailable. You are not asked to BE crucified, which was part of my own teaching contribution. You are merely asked to follow my example in the face of much LESS extreme temptations to misperceive, and NOT to accept them falsely as justifications for anger.
 
There can BE no justification for the unjustifiable. Do not believe there is, and do not TEACH that there is. Remember always that what you believe, you WILL teach. Believe with me, and we will become equal as teachers. YOUR resurrection is your re-awakening. I am the model for rebirth, but rebirth itself is merely the dawning on your minds of what is already in them. God placed it there Himself, and so it is true forever. I believed in it, and therefore made it forever true for me. Help me to teach it to our brothers in the name of the Kingdom of God, but first believe that it is true for YOU, or you will teach amiss.
 
My brothers slept during the so-called “agony” in the garden, but I could not be angry with them because I had learned I could not BE abandoned. Peter swore he would never deny me, but he did so three times. He did offer to defend me with the sword, which I naturally refused, not being at all in need of bodily protection. I AM sorry when my brothers do not share my decision to hear only one voice, because it weakens them as teachers AND as learners. Yet I know that they cannot really betray themselves OR me, and that it is still on them that I must build my church.
 
There is no choice in this because only you can BE the foundation of God’s church. A church is where an altar is, and the presence of the altar is what MAKES it a church. Any church which does not inspire love has a hidden altar which is not serving the purpose for which God intended it. I must found His church on you because you who accept me as a model are literally my disciples. Disciples are followers, but if the model they follow has chosen to save them pain in all respects, they are probably unwise NOT to follow him.
 
I elected, both for your sake AND mine, to demonstrate that the most outrageous assault, as judged by the ego, did not matter. As the world judges these things, but NOT as God KNOWS them, I was betrayed, abandoned, beaten, torn, and finally killed. It was perfectly clear that this was only because of the projection of others, because I had not harmed anyone and had healed many. We are still equal as learners, even though we need not have equal experiences. The Holy Spirit is glad when you can learn enough from mine to be re­awakened by them. That was their only purpose, and that is the only way in which I can be perceived as the Way, the Truth and the Light.
 
When you hear only one voice you are NEVER called on to sacrifice. On the contrary, by enabling yourselves to hear the Holy Spirit in others, you can learn from their experiences, and gain from them WITHOUT experiencing them yourselves. That is because the Holy Spirit is one, and anyone who listens is inevitably led to demonstrate His way for all. You are not persecuted, nor was I. You are not asked to REPEAT my experiences because the Holy Spirit, Whom we SHARE, makes this unnecessary. To USE my experiences constructively, however, you must still follow my example in how to perceive them.
 
My brothers and yours are constantly engaged in justifying the unjustifiable. My one lesson, which I must teach as I learned, is that no perception which is out of accord with the judgement of the Holy Spirit CAN be justified. I undertook to show this was true in a very extreme case merely because it would serve as a good teaching aid to those whose temptations to give in to anger and assault would NOT be so extreme. I will, with God, that none of His Sons should suffer.
 
Remember that the Holy Spirit is the communication link between God the Father and His separated Sons. If you will listen to His Voice, you will know that you cannot either hurt or BE hurt, and that many need your blessing to help them hear this for themselves. When you perceive ONLY this need in them, and do not respond to ANY other, you will have learned of me, and will be as eager to share your learning as I am. The crucifixion CANNOT be shared because it is the symbol of projection, but the resurrection is the symbol of SHARING because the re-awakening of every Son of God is necessary to enable the Sonship to know its wholeness. Only this IS knowledge.
 
The message of the crucifixion is perfectly clear:
“Teach ONLY love, for that is what you ARE. ”
 
If you interpret the crucifixion in any other way, you are using it as a weapon for assault rather than as the call for peace for which it was intended. The Apostles often misunderstood it, and always for the same reason that makes anyone misunderstand anything. Their own imperfect love made them vulnerable to projection, and out of their own fear they spoke of the “wrath of God” as His retaliatory weapon. Nor could they speak of the crucifixion entirely without anger because their own sense of guilt had MADE them angry.
 
There are two glaring examples of upside-down thinking in the New Testament, whose whole gospel is ONLY the message of love. These are not like the several slips into impatience which I made. I had learned the Atonement prayer, which I also came to teach, too well to engage in upside-down thinking myself. If the Apostles had not felt guilty they never could have quoted me as saying, “I come not to bring peace but a sword.” This is clearly the exact opposite of everything I taught.
 
Nor could they have described my reactions to Judas as they did if they had really understood me. They would have realized I COULD not have said, “Betrayest thou the Son of Man with a kiss?” unless I BELIEVED in betrayal. The whole message of the crucifixion was simply that I did NOT. The “punishment” which I am said to have called forth upon Judas was a similar reversal. Judas was my brother and a Son of God, as much a part of the Sonship as myself. Was it likely that I would condemn him when I was ready to demonstrate that condemnation is impossible?
 
I am very grateful to the Apostles for their teaching and fully aware of the extent of their devotion to me. Nevertheless, as you read their teachings, remember that I told them myself that there was much they would understand later because they were NOT wholly ready to follow me at the time. I emphasize this only because I do not want you to allow ANY fear to enter into the thought system toward which I am guiding you. I do NOT call for martyrs, but for TEACHERS. No-one is “punished” for sins, and the Sons of God are not sinners.
 
ANY concept of “punishment” involves the projection of blame, and RE-INFORCES the idea that blame is justified. The behavior that results is a LESSON IN BLAME, just as all behavior teaches the beliefs which motivate it. The crucifixion was a complex of behaviors arising out of clearly opposed thought systems. As such, it was the perfect symbol of conflict between the ego and the Son of God. The conflict is just as real now, and its lessons, too, have equal reality WHEN THEY ARE LEARNED. I do not need gratitude any more than I needed protection, but YOU need to develop your weakened ability to BE grateful, or you cannot appreciate God. HE does not need your appreciation, but YOU do.
 
You cannot love what you do not appreciate, and FEAR MAKES APPRECIATION IMPOSSIBLE. Whenever you are afraid of what you are you do NOT appreciate it, and will therefore reject it. As a result, you will TEACH REJECTION. The power of the Sons of God is operating all the time because they were created as creators. Their influence on EACH OTHER is without limit, and MUST be used for their joint salvation. Each one must learn to teach that all forms of rejection are utterly meaningless. The separation IS the notion of rejection. As long as you TEACH this, you still believe it. This is NOT as God thinks, and you must think as He thinks if you are to know Him again.
 
In divine friendship,
your brother,
-wishy

Edited by dpwishy, 25 March 2016 - 09:41 PM.

  • Myc, -=Zeus=-, Skywatcher and 4 others like this

#2 Myc

Myc

    El Jardinero

  • App Administrator
  • 6,927 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:56 AM

That's an excerpt from what looks to be some promising reading.

 

I've never looked into much of this stuff simply because many of these accounts start with, "I talked to God and He told me to tell you.....(insert monologue)".

 

From my reading of the Bible, it is my understanding that it has all been said. Nothing can be added. There is also cautionary text warning against those who claim to know the mind of God. Any text which suggests anything other than a direct communion with God is (IMO) dangerous and leads to potential misguidance.

We were commanded to "seek ye first, the Kingdom of Heaven within"

This tells me that we all have access to the Divine - no barriers - no need for an emissary or go-between - no special language or handshake required.

Come one, come all, be still and know. This means to dismiss the character of self (paraphrased). Often the simplest, most difficult feat of man. Paradoxic in its simplicity and complexity. Hush the moronic character voice of mind personality - quiet that babbling inner child which rambles endlessly and speaks useless and frivolous things - then, you may know the Mind with practice and loving personal discipline. The Mind is unavailable to the un-worthy. The pass-phrase or secret knock cannot be simulated. Your heart is the identifier. Once accessed, the Mind supplies what you need to know - there's no need for a "teacher" - one just knows. 

As a teacher, you can only show someone the door. The student has to supply his own key and choose to enter. No person can be led through that door - they must do it themselves or remain (impossibly) on the other side until they're ready at the personal level. No room for Jonestown gurus in this setup. 


  • Skywatcher, Alder Logs, Guy1298 and 1 other like this

#3 pharmer

pharmer

    Mycotopiate

  • OG VIP
  • 3,989 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:06 AM

one just knows

 

who needs a pass key when he gives himself an All Areas Pass? How is this any more or better than accepting scripts or sermons, or assertions second hand?

 

If the assertions can't be proven they can't be known. Until then they are just conjectures and wishes.

 

If I were king there would be no talk of Himself, or religion in general, without first providing the proof. No proof - no idle chat, no collections plate, no dogma, no second third fourth fifth hand ad nauseum assertions "known" to be absolutely true. Sunday mornings are stuffed with this stuff.

 

Also no crusades or jihads or purging "holy" lands of wrong genes. No tribal wars to extinguish unapproved superstitions.

 

A new morality would have to supplant the old religions but I'd wager we'd get along just fine without our invisible friends.

 

I mean, how many times has this discussion been had in the last year? Last century? Last millenium? Since the last ice age?

 

and still no proof

 

but an awful lot of one just knowing and that knowing somehow at odds with the guy next to him just knowing too.

 

it's all so funny and frustrating to watch

 

and in all that red text up there not one mention of the most likely reason for the execution. That Jesus pissed off the local people who just knew and He didn't kowtow to the Roman invaders. Jesus wasn't the only man crucified, ya know? Tens of thousands of people were crucified in several countries taken by the Romans. Yet ONE is special. The rest are unmentioned unless in context of Him. In all fairness that should be included in the "Message"


Edited by pharmer, 26 March 2016 - 11:14 AM.

  • coorsmikey, riseabovethought and Wimzers like this

#4 Alder Logs

Alder Logs

    ૐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ૐ

  • Moderator
  • 14,048 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:16 PM

If one does one's own inquiry with due integrity, one might learn what it is that one truly 'knows.'   One might come to see what can actually be proved.   For myself, I see how little, even if classifiable as 'fact,' can truly be said to be 'known.'   All perception of the phenomenal can do is lead to assumptions.   Though assumptions can be stubbornly and righteously held, when push comes to push, not but assumptions they be.   I will submit here that what creates issues of separation are things not known, but assumptions, asserted as knowledge.  One must lay down a lot to see one's own divinity, not pick something up.  

 

I think what was quoted in red was not anything about reason.   In inquiry we ask: who and what wants or demands a knowledge propped upon reason?   The rational mind?   The one who has self identified as a rational thinker?   Taking this limitation, the same limitation is put before our vision, like colored glass.   We project a world and perceive that world.   There is a saying in spiritual circles: I do not see the world as it is. I see the world as I am


Edited by Alder Logs, 26 March 2016 - 12:20 PM.

  • Myc, -=Zeus=- and Wimzers like this

#5 Myc

Myc

    El Jardinero

  • App Administrator
  • 6,927 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:30 PM

I completely agree with your opening statements. You've actually sorta helped make my point.

In a world of personal recognizance, there is no need for "leadership" when everyone looks to be accountable at the level of every individual. I realize this doesn't exist any more than any other ideal or perfect construct - like "democracy" and other notions. So you're correct in saying there would be no religion, no wars, ....a new morality would prevail because we are all self-deceived characters of the One Spirit. 

 

I once stood, frustrated, on the outside too. Rarely do I darken the doorstep of any religious business facility - a.k.a. church. And then, only to honor someone else - wedding, funeral, etc. It is kinda overlooked so I say it regularly - the Bible is a book written about the Hebrews, by the Hebrews, for the Hebrews. The reason Jesus was so important (and railroaded into execution) was because he was bucking the system. He was telling people of their Divine right to have direct communion with the Father. This eliminated the need for the "church" and they stood to lose their power and standing. So they wrote him into their story and veiled his actual message behind some really deep allegory and double entendre. These guys were literary geniuses of deceit - which is another reason they were so pissed at this Jesus fellow. He knew their book better than they did. LOL

 

As for the proof. 

The only proof I can deliver is in the form of my changed self. This is only evident to me at the personal level - and my immediate social group/family. For you to properly evaluate this proof, you would have to have known me at the day-in, day-out progression - which is, obviously, impossible. That's why gurus never really work because they get caught-up in assuming a new character of "savior". Notice how in the stories, Jesus always tried to get people to do their own thinking. So that we would have no need of a guru. (It's a DIY program)

 

As for the crucifixion - it was foretold. Regardless of the mechanism, the action was slated to occur. Jesus was a symbol. God Himself, suited-up like us, offering Himself as the final sacrifice. Meaning, no more go-betweens, no more need for "religion" or violence in the name of.......

Instead, the church just cleverly side-stepped the whole message, went into cahoots with their captors (Roman Empire - Constantine), twisted the message of the Bible to suit their needs, established a biggie whopper of a church empire.............See what churchianity gets you? Er, I mean religiousity......


  • -=Zeus=- and Wimzers like this

#6 Zwapa

Zwapa

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 265 posts

Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:47 PM

alder said :There is a saying in spiritual circles: I do not see the world as it is. I see the world as I am.

 

cannot agree more .... even for the blind
 



#7 Alder Logs

Alder Logs

    ૐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ૐ

  • Moderator
  • 14,048 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 26 March 2016 - 03:22 PM

 

...gurus never really work...

 

Is this truly known?

 

When I was thinking I had found my first guru, I threw the I Ching about it and got this hexagram (with no changes):

 

	From Wilhelm Baynes I Ching:  Hexagram 50, Ting, the Caldron:

gallery_131808_1351_4326.gif

THE JUDGMENT

THE CALDRON. Supreme good fortune. Success.

While THE WELL relates to the social foundation of our life, and this foundation is likened to the water that serves to nourish growing wood, the present hexagram refers to the cultural superstructure of society. Here it is the wood that serves as nourishment for the flame, the spirit. All that is visible must grow beyond itself, extend into the realm of the invisible. Thereby it receives its true consecration and clarity and takes firm root in the cosmic order.

Here we see civilization as it reaches its culmination in religion. The ting serves in offering sacrifice to God. The highest earthly values must be sacrificed to the divine. But the truly divine does not manifest itself apart from man. The supreme revelation of God appears in prophets and holy men. To venerate them is true veneration of God. The will of God, as revealed through them, should be accepted in humility; this brings inner enlightenment and true understanding of the world, and this leads to great good fortune and success.

 

In the Hindu tradition, which I am somewhat familiar with, the guru, if true, brings the disciple into oneness with him or herself.   The relationship is a little like that with a shaman.   My guru points me to self inquiry which, as it has proceeded, shows me that I and the guru are one.  

 

=====================================

 

Mooji relays a story of a spiritual seeker who, after much sadhana (or spiritual practice), finally stands at the door of God and knocks.  

 

"Who's there," rumbles the voice of God?!?  

 

"It is I, Lord."

 

"Go away! There is no room for two in here!"

 

Crushed, the seeker returns to his sadhana, deeply contemplating what has happened.   Later he arrives again at God's door and knocks.

 

"Who's there?"

 

"It is You, Lord."  

 

The Door opens.   "Come in."


Edited by Alder Logs, 26 March 2016 - 04:02 PM.

  • Wimzers likes this

#8 pharmer

pharmer

    Mycotopiate

  • OG VIP
  • 3,989 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:07 PM

but, guys, don't you see it?

 

all these concoctions have one thing in common

 

they start from the assumption that God is and then build outward from there

 

always with the assumption that God IS

 

and never once with proof

 

one would not accept this kind of presentation from a mutual fund salesman, or Ponzi specialist, or a guy at your door selling pots and pans and each believer usually can find a way to discredit another form of belief system for this self same slippery thinking

 

what I don't understand, and find the most frustrating, is that most cannot keep it to themselves but MUST evangelize their own personal narrative

 

Don't get me wrong, please. I"m ok with people believing in what ever they want and on the eve of many peoples' happiest day wouldn't consider keeping them from it.

 

What I believe is this: people who can't accurately describe all the mechanisms occurring inside a single cell cannot hope in a billion years to understand that which animates the Entirety. To pretend otherwise is a fools errand and simultaneously monstrously arrogant

 

which just gave me an idea for another thread.......


Edited by pharmer, 26 March 2016 - 04:09 PM.

  • sedaeng likes this

#9 dpwishy

dpwishy

    A Fisher Of Souls

  • Honorary Former Staff
  • 1,976 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 26 March 2016 - 05:19 PM

but, guys, don't you see it?

 

all these concoctions have one thing in common

 

they start from the assumption that God is and then build outward from there

 

always with the assumption that God IS

 

and never once with proof

God isnt a concept, its an experience.
There is no proof needed for those who have experienced it.

Nor will there ever need be.

Those who believe in a faith because of their upbringing, culture, what they have told or what sounds right. I put none of these in this category. If we have not had the experience of, then we must not stop. Once we have this experience, no proof is needed. Its not about a personal narrative, if it was, we could believe any. I dont know how much more to explain it other than its not a concept but an experience. These are two different things all together.

I stopped trying to prove anything as there is no proof, I also stopped trying to share my belief with others and have concentrated on just talking about what belief is. Any objection I have seen here, including a previous comment made by someone else about "it had to do with Jesus pissing every one else off", comes from ego, which is actually the exact opposite perspective this was written under. Alder logs said it perfectly when he said something like "In inquiry we ask: who and what wants or demands a knowledge propped upon reason? The rational mind? The one who has self identified as a rational thinker?". Every question you have posed has no basis but in a rational mind that can not grasp or understand this lesson or meaning what so ever, nor was ever created too. In fact, it was created to be an enemy of. If it does, it spins it via the mind of ego. "How can this be? Isnt this the case?" There has to be an A to meet the B and then to C and so forth. This is not how the divine works, this is not how god works. This is not how reality works. Try to play this rational game for as long as possible and we all will come to find it leads us NO where. We eventually find brick walls that only emotion and experience can penetrate. I understand your skepticism, believe me. Its just the way you are going about trying to solve it, is impossible. It always will be and was forever meant to be. 

 

I think the question that must be asked is, if we havnt had this experience and cant say for sure it DOESNT exist via the self, then it may be a worth while goal to go after and try to prove or disprove to yourself via experience. We must ask ourselves, have we really put in the work it takes? The spiritual, the ethical, the meditation, the right living in all aspects to truly know? If not, how can we say either way unless we have put in that effort and failed? I ask this to anyone as I KNOW if this effort is put in and truly committed too, God is not a concept but an experience. And this is not about some people have something and others dont. What it is about is, this is why we came here and if we have not had this experience, maybe this should be our true goal in life.

I agree religion has it wrong, as religion arises from an ego that needs to share THEIR experience with another ego. This is not how the experience of God is. Notice how the Buddha never talks of God or the experience of.  He literally gives the art and method to attain god but allows the user to experience god as it comes to them. Religion is taking this experience and saying this is the only way it happens, which is a grave mistake.

 

I dont mean this as anything personal but its more a reply to your question about proof. If we even have to ask where the proof is, I think its a sign that we never really looked inside ourselves to begin with. We may have peaked, but maybe not put in the true effort it takes to get a real glimpse. I used to think it wasnt fair as some people are just more aware or rather can have these experiences more easily without some of this work needed. It took me a while to realize and step back and bear witness to all the past life work they have done to get here.  It never just happens, it will always take work. But never be discourages by those who seem to put in no work and get it easy, as I can promise there is no true shortcut and the work is done somewhere, sometime. The goal is try to pick up where you stopped last life and continue, and this is WAY harder than it seems as everything is designed for you to forget and not continue. These experiences of God karmaically may not even be possible to attain in one life and may take may lives work, but the point is to have a steady focus life after life so true progress can be made. Once this experience happens, nothing else in life, in reality, will matter. We will find that drugs, money, food, all these material things to be a substitute to fill this hole we always had, the hole where god belonged. If it wasnt real, if it wasnt tangible, then no one would give up what is REAL for something that "isnt" nor cant be seen.

I have a lot more to write about this thread but this is a good place to start.

In divine friendship,

your brother,

-wishy


Edited by dpwishy, 26 March 2016 - 05:51 PM.

  • -=Zeus=-, Alder Logs and Wimzers like this

#10 pharmer

pharmer

    Mycotopiate

  • OG VIP
  • 3,989 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 26 March 2016 - 06:44 PM

for the record, I take no replies personally or antagonistically. I like where this thread has been and is likely to go.

 

we have some real wordsmiths here.

 

in the end we will all have done our exercise routine on this topic, scratch our heads at the impenetrability of each other, and recoup our strength for the next exercise session. such is the nature of these discussions.


  • sedaeng likes this

#11 Alder Logs

Alder Logs

    ૐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ૐ

  • Moderator
  • 14,048 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 26 March 2016 - 07:44 PM

Anything you can say about anything, is NOT the thing.  It's only ABOUT the thing.

 

As it seems from my experience, there is a brain mind and a heart mind.  The brain mind thinks in words, quantifiers, and images.  The heart mind thinks in silence.  Which of these is not intelligence? 

 

There is a shortcut.   The shortcut is an urge inside the heart mind to be its truth.  Truth: or in Sanskrit: Satya, means, "that which Is."   Just as it has been said by Lao Tsu, "the Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao," all of the brain's millions of symbols paint pictures that are only there for the perceiver to interpret.  The brain mind longs for better interpretations, the true interpretation.   Such is an imagination at best.  And yet, the thing that wants to know is relentless in its mission, though doomed to failure.  That which Is is all that needs to be discovered.   It's hiding here, right behind what we think is.

 

The cleverest word-smithing cannot do it. 

 

If one surrenders to the shortcut, and goes to the heart, one finds what was always here all along.  This is the greatest cosmic joke on us as the ego, or personal identity we have been conditioned to think of ourselves as being.   As St. Frances of Assisi has said, "What you are looking for is what is looking."  As Mooji says, "We are like fish in the ocean, dying of thirst."  The waking dream of this human life is in believing all our beliefs.   What Is is here all the while, waiting to be seen when the beliefs about what Is are laid down.  When one's dream is seen for what it is, it is crystal clear why so many of us are lost in the dream.   It is conditioned into everyone from Day 1 to feel and be something made up.  

 

We are all taught to identify with that body and brain mind.   Say your first word and brace your developing personal self for parental praise and approval.  You are on your way as a separate point of perspective, acting under your personal name.   You learn to say, "I am ___________."   As identity, you start collecting gold stars next to your name, or the imprints of failures to perform and get strokes.  The dream is overwhelming, and we all go through it.   Some will awaken, as awakening is always here to be had.   Awakening comes when one feels and sees the artificiality of the dream and finds the urge for transcendence of one's own bullshit story.  As soon as the awakening begins, it begins to become clear that all are blameless for having been dreaming.  What we might have been judging as evil behavior is but the unawakened self acting out of its conditioning.  

 

And so, what I write is my satsang, as I live it now.  Memories of what came before, stories of how what happened, are only facts at best, and not necessarily applicable to any other being.    Each must and will find their own way, dreaming or waking to themselves, as is their way, their tao.   When their tao becomes the Tao, the separation will be seen to have never been.   There will be no words for It, but in the silence, nothing more is needed.   All becomes love and peace, as all is seen to be beyond even the concept of perfection.   There is nothing to do, and no doer.   There is only that which Is. 


Edited by Alder Logs, 26 March 2016 - 09:24 PM.

  • -=Zeus=-, Wimzers, ElPirana and 1 other like this

#12 Moonless

Moonless

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 329 posts

Posted 22 July 2019 - 03:53 PM

Thank you



#13 elfstone

elfstone

    Mycotopiate

  • Black VIP
  • 331 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 19 December 2019 - 01:04 AM

Some writers can take the Christian mythos and spin stories that astonish and delight as well as enlight. George MacDonald is the very best I have ever read. I heartily recommend two of his best works:


https://www.amazon.c.../dp/1731141823/


https://www.amazon.c.../dp/1090552661/

David Jack’s translations of the Scots dialogue into English is superb. He is a native speaker of Doric Scots which is the language MacDonald uses for his characters.

From Donal Grant:


Although I've translated this in the book itself, I'll share the Scots as this one's pretty mild and easy to understand (but just in case, "til" is "to" ;) )

Here's the wider context in English though...

“‘The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth his handy- work.’ I used, when I was a lad, to study a little astronomy, in the hope of better hearing what the heavens declared about the glory of God; I would fain understand the speech one day cried across the night to the other. But it was nothing like I hoped.The things the astronomer told the simple folk for whom he was writing, were very wonderful, but I couldn’t find in my heart that they made me think any more of God than I did before. I don’t mean to say that they mightn’t produce that effect on another, but that wasn’t my experience of them. I was quite downhearted at this; for you see I was set upon approaching him whose company I craved, and at that time I hadn’t learned to go straight to him that’s the express image of his person, but always sought him through the philosophy–eh, but it was odd, childish philosophy!–of the good books that dwell upon the nature of God and all that, and his hatred of sin and all that–part and part true, no doubt. But I wanted God great and near, and they made him out small; small, and very far away. One night, however, I was out by myself upon the shore, just as the stars were peeping out. And it wasn’t as if they were afraid of the sun, and pleased that he was gone, but as if they were all peeking out to see what had become of their Father of Lights. All at once I seemed to come to myself, as if out of some wandering delusion of the facul- ties. I cast my eyes up above, and eh, there was the heaven as God made it–awful!–big and deep, always fathomless deep, and full of the wandering yet steady lights that nothing can blow out but the breath of his mouth! It went away up and up, and deeper and deeper; my eyes went travelling away and away till it seemed as if they could never come back to me. All at once they dropped from the sky like a lark, and lighted upon the horizon, where the sea and the sky met like righteousness and peace kissing one another, as the psalm says. I can’t tell what it was, but just there where the earth and the sky came together, it was the meeting of my earthly soul with God’s heavenly soul! There were bonny colours, and bonny lights, and a bonny great star hanging over it all, but it was none of those things; it was something deeper than all, and came to the top more than all! And from that moment I saw–not how the heavens declare the glory of God, but I saw them declaring it, and I wanted no more. Astronomy for me might sit and wait for a better world, where folk didn’t wear out their shoes, and other folk hadn’t to mend them. For what is the great glory of God but that, though no man can comprehend him, he comes down, and lays his cheek to his man’s, and says to him, ‘Eh, my creature!’”


γνῶθι σεαυτόν
gnōthi seauton
know thyself
  • -=Zeus=-, DonShadow, Wimzers and 1 other like this

#14 swayambhu

swayambhu

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 144 posts

Posted 20 December 2019 - 06:46 PM

but, guys, don't you see it?

 

all these concoctions have one thing in common

 

they start from the assumption that God is and then build outward from there

 

always with the assumption that God IS

 

 

People have personalities, dogs have personalities, bugs have personalities, rocks have personalities. Rocks don't have much personality but it's there if you spend enough time alone with a given rock. 

Personality being a "real" thing, though maybe hard to prove, it is scaleable to any given mode of being- human, bug, dog, etc.

The universe/multiverse also has a personality, but it's a personality, a supreme personality, that, encompassing as it does all possible permutations of the proliferation of forms bubbling up from the ground of being, is impossible for the human being to conceive of.

So, we chose a scaled down version. Maybe something that looks like us, a focus for the developement of our relationship with the universe. We give it a name and a somewhat limited personality so that our intellects can grasp at least some of it, and we call it "God".

One of the beauties of the Christian religion is that this "God" bubbled up in the form of a person, our own form, and the person and the message were one and the same. Be like this = Love God, love creation, love mankind. A pretty simple message, but very hard to master.

Why "love"? Because that seems to be the frequency at which mankind, and most/all sentient beings flourish. Don't ask me why.


  • -=Zeus=-, Wimzers and Moonless like this

#15 TVCasualty

TVCasualty

    Embrace Your Damage

  • Moderator
  • 11,953 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 21 December 2019 - 04:06 PM

I can’t help it, apparently. But this is an extremely nuanced issue. So apologies in advance for all the words again, lol…


From what I’ve seen, direct experience and organized religion are diametrically-opposed worldviews that cannot be reconciled. The former is made of awareness and the latter of words, which are a fossilized form of awareness frozen at a particular moment in time. It’s like comparing apples to rocks.

The most, and to me the only beautiful thing about organized religion is that it’s cultural dominance is waning fast in many countries, though probably not fast enough or in enough countries to help slow or stop our ongoing free-fall to collapse. Religion continues to be a major contributor of the acceleration of these existential trends, which makes sense since it’s merely a tool of maintaining the political status quo, and the status quo is suicidally-myopic.
 


Blasphemy (aka political dissent) is still fatal in many parts of the world, and becomes so again wherever religion regains sufficient social dominance to bring back its “true” (i.e. fundamentalist) form and make it stick. Religions are only polite towards skeptics and non-believers when they are forced to be. Progressive types who think everybody and their religions can all get along forget this at their literal peril.

And whenever a religion does enjoy a cultural resurgence like cancer roaring back out of remission, half of the population in particular tends to suffer tremendously thanks to being treated like second-class, subservient citizens (women, in other words). And that’s even if they follow the “correct” religion wherever they happen to live!

I interpret the fact that the religions currently dominating the vast majority of the planet are all oppressively-patriarchal sausage-fests as rather damning evidence that religion in actual practice is a false/corrupted path. The only places where even a semblance of the notion of balance with the sacred feminine has endured is where a religion has failed to fully destroy a tradition/indigenous culture and was forced to compromise a bit so as to better get the locals to play ball so they could be put to work instead of having to all be killed to spread the love.


Psychedelics can help counter the dominance and influence of religion, which is why religious leaders have historically suppressed them so brutally. The people with self-serving agendas who run them have no use for promoting approaches to spirituality and understanding the world that require no leadership, bureaucracy, dogma, or even any words at all.
 
There are some followers within every religion who thoughtfully try to interpret their faith that way, but those are never the people who end up at the very top of the pyramid-scheme. Someone like David Steindl-Rast doesn’t and never had a chance in hell of becoming Pope, for example. People like Rast are happily used for good PR by those who can and do get to wear the Big Hat, however.
 


Mixing up such disparate epistemologies (direct experience vs. a verbose pyramid-scheme with a middle-man in a big funny hat who tells us what god really thinks) seems like a good way to mess one’s mind up, at best. Time will tell, I suppose.


The leftover collective cultural PTSD-baggage (among other social pathologies) from the colonial era seems to hold an especially tenacious grip on modern society, and combining all that with an ancient practice of direct experience seems like a good way to induce a staggering degree of cognitive dissonance, if not induce a psychotic break occasionally.

Religion’s cultural hegemony is so dominant that we don’t even notice many of its manifestations. The idea that this “is” the year 2019 is beyond absurd, for example, not to mention silliness like being unable to buy alcohol on Sunday until 1pm in some places, lol. But many don’t think of those things (or Xmas being a Federal holiday) as aspects of the social dominance of religion, such is its subtle ubiquity. It’s effect on a given culture is not so subtle, however.


This has made for strange and disconcerting results among a number of individuals I’ve known who have tried to syncretize what they gained from direct experience with the “traditional” upbringing they had in a sect of an organized religion.  

Three individuals ended up repudiating psychedelics and became reactionary Fundies who went all-in on the self-righteous-churchgoer trip (and became utterly insufferable to be around, but at least they don’t have to care about scary stuff like WWIII or climate change anymore because Jesus and Revelation). One bailed on both Xtianity and psychedelics and became a Hare Krishna, but then 6 months later realized it was just another religion and wandered off and I lost touch around that time so I don’t where his journey took him next.
 
 

Religion is ultimately a form of politics that co-opts moral and ethical teachings and corrupts them into tools of social control and obedience. Spiritual matters, and even god, are incidental to its primary function. This can be seen by observing the exact same dynamic at play in places like North Korea, where Dear Leader replaces god as the object of mandatory worship, and images of him and his father adorn household altars. After a while Stockholm Syndrome kicks in for most and the mandatory faith in what or whomever takes on a self-sustaining life of its own among the masses and the rest is history, literally.
 


Hitchens was arguably correct in asserting that religion in actual practice poisons everything, and trying to dress it up and shoe-horn genuine wisdom and insight as being “religious” teachings is disingenuous or historically uninformed since nothing any religion teaches is original to any of the extant religions.

They’re all examples of cut-and-paste jobs of earlier traditions and adopted superstitions shaped over time by the various political interests that sought to control their respective societies, since to control the religion is to control the population of both the faithful who follow it as well as those who may be skeptical but are sufficiently cowed to silence by the implicit threats of violence that the majority mob-rule that religion tends to manifest as. God help any homosexual atheists in the Middle East or Africa or Mississippi, so to speak.

 
Religions are certainly necessary to study from an academic perspective and understanding a religious text like the Bible is necessary for understanding the history, traditions, and literature of Western Civilization just as other historic religious texts are necessary for understanding their respective cultures. But allowing religions, or rather the mere mortals that control them, to craft law or policy continues to be a recipe for disaster, same as it ever was. Ask a  woman who needs to get an abortion in Texas how that goes, and that’s about as mild an example as they come.
 
 

I get that there are widely-disparate points of departure for our respective journeys through life, and that there is a commonly-held implicit assumption (at least among those who don’t fully embrace the dogma of a given religion) that all such journeys ultimately lead to the same goal or destination. That suggests that the path to the transcendent and the sublime can be found through organized religion as well as through personal direct experience, but in my experience this is not the case at all.

The former is a parent-child type of relationship of pathological dependence and the latter is about becoming a grown-up. With a religion, it’s highly likely that the men who put themselves in charge of it will lead us astray from the insights gained by any direct experience we happen to gain (and it’s always men calling the shots, interestingly enough). With religion, Dad is always watching us in our eternal infancy. Which is appealing to some degree since if I adopt that perspective then nothing that happens is ever truly my fault or responsibility. Like climate change, for starters.

 
Or as Joe Frank put it in one of his radio shows, “If you can’t handle freedom then go where you don’t have to.”
 
If only the majority of the faithful stopped there, and didn’t also try to take everyone else’s freedom away in the process of failing to handle their own, then we might’ve had a shot at saving the good parts of this high-tech but low-awareness civilization that we’ve created. But they don’t stop there, and as a consequence we’ve almost certainly already missed our chance to avoid a global “cleansing” and it may take a thousand years for the surviving population to clean up the mess we’re about to make and start living again instead of merely surviving. It’s all connected. Literally. We’ll all see this clearly soon enough, barring the vanishingly-improbable sudden emergence of global environmental and economic sustainability.
 
 

The message of the crucifixion, by the way, is death.


Seems pretty straightforward considering that there’s a dead guy nailed to it in some representations, and he’s implied in the rest.


And specifically it’s an instrument of death via torture. Seems like an odd choice for a teaching story about love or whatever, but maybe that’s just me. Folks can over-think it and project whatever narrative they want onto it like a Rorschach Culture Blot but it literally WAS a form of horrifically-brutal punishment, so it’s kind of odd to assert otherwise though that’s probably the allegorical aspect of the story.

But if it’s an allegory then it was not a historic event, which poses problems for the allegorical aspects since the story in the book involved a literal crucifixion unless of course the whole book is merely a collection of allegories and metaphors (with all that that implies). It’s obvious that significant parts of the Bible don’t make logical sense internally, even when one accepts its most outlandish implied givens. But our innate dissonance tends to render such trifles moot, so belief in the unbelievable endures regardless in a world of space telescopes, genetic modification, and forensic archeology.

Projecting profound insights and deep meanings onto the act of nailing a guy to a post is only done because that imagery happens to be a central aspect of the religious lens through which Western culture has historically interpreted stuff. Fortunately for freedom of thought, "America" (if not the United States) is not a purely Western construct.
 

Freedom and empathy and tolerance and love are losing (badly) the never-ending battle to steer and direct society, in case anyone hadn’t noticed. Religion may talk a good game about those things in its marketing literature and PR spin but in its actual manifest forms has proven to be a scourge upon mankind, as well as to the planet itself. Gains in freedom of thought that took centuries to secure can be wiped out in an instant; all it takes is one suitably-enraged transcendentally-motivated mob toting semi-automatic pitchforks with extended mags and tiki-torches and Dark Age v2.0 will be upon us. I imagine we'll all get to see this for ourselves soon enough, if we haven't already.
 
 
 

Lest we forget, no aspect of religion or religious practice that is commonly perceived as positive or beneficial for society (or the individual) requires the existence of religion in order to manifest. Zero. None.

 

But religion (or the secular variant of the same dynamic) IS essential to get otherwise nice, morally-upstanding people to commit horrific atrocities against their fellow humans, or to not worry about environmental collapse or WWIII and therefore don't feel compelled to actually do anything about preventing them even as they continue to grow more likely.

 

The above paragraphs would get me killed in a lot of places around the world right now, today. I would urge the "let's all get along!" crowd to think about that since if getting along is a one-way street then you won't be "getting along" for very long.

 

I sincerely believe (heheheh) that the evolution of our society and culture beyond religion and the someone-bigger-will-save-us myth that religion explicitly and implicitly promotes is long overdue and needs to happen asap or else we're collectively screwed, and probably soon.

 

 

Edit: Some goddamned auto-corrected spellings needed correcting again...


Edited by TVCasualty, 21 December 2019 - 05:59 PM.

  • Myc, Alder Logs, Wimzers and 1 other like this

#16 bezevo

bezevo

    Mycotopiate

  • Gold VIP
  • 808 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 21 December 2019 - 04:48 PM

MY MESSAGE OF THE CRUCIFIXION

 

What kind person thinks a 12 inch statue on the wall of a man being tortured to death is an appropriate decoration for a toddlers room ?

 

Really  what were you thinking ? duh .

 

oh i'm an agnostic   ............strangely ....... Atheists really hate me for it ? way more  than the Religious people .

 

Bez


  • Alder Logs, Wimzers, ElPirana and 1 other like this

#17 Alder Logs

Alder Logs

    ૐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ૐ

  • Moderator
  • 14,048 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 21 December 2019 - 05:12 PM

"It is a blessing to be born into one of the world's great religions. To die in one is a great curse."

~Sri Hans Ji Maharaj

 

Militant Agnostic

I don't know

and you don't either

~seen on a bumper sticker

 

 

 

I used to hear this, "experience is the best teacher."  No, I say, "experience is the only teacher." 

 

I think of Alan Watts who was studying to be a priest in the Church of England, and in his divinity courses, chose to study the eastern traditions.  Well, that didn't work out as he'd expected.  The traditions that would have us see for ourselves, rather than learn rote concepts to regurgitate, to me, parallel what the psychedelic experience has been for me.   "First, know thyself."  Get that one sorted, and you can die free, or, at least your body can, as it's not at all clear what it can and can't take with it.


  • Wimzers and ElPirana like this

#18 TVCasualty

TVCasualty

    Embrace Your Damage

  • Moderator
  • 11,953 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 21 December 2019 - 05:46 PM

 

"It is a blessing to be born into one of the world's great religions. To die in one is a great curse."

~Sri Hans Ji Maharaj

I'd agree with half of that.

 

I don't see the benefit of having one's point of departure start so unnecessarily far behind.



#19 Alder Logs

Alder Logs

    ૐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ૐ

  • Moderator
  • 14,048 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 21 December 2019 - 06:24 PM

Well, if you are going to wake up anyway, might as well make it count the most.



#20 swayambhu

swayambhu

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 144 posts

Posted 22 December 2019 - 05:09 AM

I'm not sure we can blame religion for being coopted by the power hungry and dysfunctional. I think we can blame human nature for that, and for human nature being the way it is we can blame Mother Nature. And Mother Nature is not fluffy and balanced and nurturing. She is inexorable and astonishing and often terrible to behold.
And I'll add that it is almost always the case that when religious nut jobs are being assholes, they are usually not actually following the basic tenets of the religion they claim to represent.

Edited by swayambhu, 22 December 2019 - 05:09 AM.

  • flashingrooster likes this




Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!