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Spawn-building reminder, PSA


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#1 Myc

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 07:28 AM

Just a reminder when building large amounts of grain spawn.

 

Large bags of spawn generate their own heat.

 

Bacterial endospores can NEVER be completely eliminated from a "sterilized" substrate. Word. 

 

When left in close proximity, the bags can generate enough accumulated heat to germinate the existing endospores within your "sterilized", PC'd substrates.

 

In all, I just lost over 12 pounds of spawn for the garden this year. 

But I have a huge bacillus culture...........:(

 

F-ing rookie mistake. I may have ruined my garden for the whole year since I planned to capitalize on cold outdoor ambient temperatures to get the fungi established.

Efforts in the past have proven that if I don't get this "jump-start" - all of my projects fail. In this local climate, raising fungi outdoors compares with trying to set up a snow-cone stand on the surface of the sun.

 

Oh well.

I'll spawn the contaminated grain anyway to see what happens.

There's always next year.

So much for all of my fungal experiments. I'm kinda heart-broken and just hoping my garden plants are more forgiving than the fungi. 

 

Harsh lesson learned.

Will I remember for next time? 

I hope this message helps someone else who is blinded by their enthusiasm.


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#2 PsyBearknot

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 01:47 PM

Oh shit Mann! Sorry to hear that!

#3 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 04:29 PM

I think if its a bacterial infection that you can still use especially if its going out doors.
All the fresh air and temps will stave off the bacteria and hopefully allow the myc to flurish.
This ive noticed when putting contaminated subs outside and getting fruits later.
Good luck
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#4 truMushrooms

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 09:09 PM

I wouldn't spawn contaminated grain but that's just my opinion. 

Sucks to hear man  :mellow:  happens to all of us though, I've thrown out kilos of contamed grain spawn specially as I was still learning the basics. 

I've got some gallon jars that are a hit or miss which might be caused by the large amounts of spawn that fit in there...sometimes I can get them to colonize fully without a prob other times I get a contam poppin up in there. 

I guess this is something everyone on here should be wary of, keeping large amounts of spawn on a cool surface or room should help with keeping the temps at bay.

How much grain did you put in these bags?

This reminds me of people using alfalfa as a supplement on oyster grows, the added nitrogen from the alfalfa created more heat in the substrate which is something that needed to be kept in checked. An idea that was thrown around was having a temperature controlled incubation room, but I understand this isn't common for the home grower. 

edit: if you've got some backup why not rebuild up the spawn? you can put some clean agar wedge onto a cornmeal plate, make some slurry up, knock a few bottles of grain up - colonize them in a week or 2 tops - mulitiply those jars by spawning onto more grain and within a month or so you'd be loaded with spawn again...

I did some g2g a couple of days ago and I'm really surprised by WBS' ability to colonize, the added surface area that the small millet can cover really helps speed up the colonization process. Bit of coffee grounds in the grain jars also adds to the effect. 

Anyhow, best of luck Myc! 


Edited by truMushrooms, 07 April 2016 - 09:12 PM.


#5 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 11:42 PM

I wouldn't spawn contaminated grain but that's just my opinion. 
Sucks to hear man  :mellow:  happens to all of us though, I've thrown out kilos of contamed grain spawn specially as I was still learning the basics. 
I've got some gallon jars that are a hit or miss which might be caused by the large amounts of spawn that fit in there...sometimes I can get them to colonize fully without a prob other times I get a contam poppin up in there. 
I guess this is something everyone on here should be wary of, keeping large amounts of spawn on a cool surface or room should help with keeping the temps at bay.
How much grain did you put in these bags?
This reminds me of people using alfalfa as a supplement on oyster grows, the added nitrogen from the alfalfa created more heat in the substrate which is something that needed to be kept in checked. An idea that was thrown around was having a temperature controlled incubation room, but I understand this isn't common for the home grower. 
edit: if you've got some backup why not rebuild up the spawn? you can put some clean agar wedge onto a cornmeal plate, make some slurry up, knock a few bottles of grain up - colonize them in a week or 2 tops - mulitiply those jars by spawning onto more grain and within a month or so you'd be loaded with spawn again...
I did some g2g a couple of days ago and I'm really surprised by WBS' ability to colonize, the added surface area that the small millet can cover really helps speed up the colonization process. Bit of coffee grounds in the grain jars also adds to the effect. 
Anyhow, best of luck Myc!


I wouldnt use grain spawn w bacteria for just any old project but MYC said hes gonna do an out door project.

Im not sure why he may or may not feel like hes outta time to build up his spawn befor its too late. However, if the project is a wash then why not use it, but regardless, and entirly dependent on how far the the myc ran thru the grain, its useable, with in reason that is. That is however, only under the guise that its going out side.

Im pretty sure that the bacteria is strongest in an anarobic environment like a jar or bag. Hell even trich i think, is dependent on humidity heat and lack of fresh air.

I do agree that starting a project based on rotten grain is no way to start. If he is throwing in the towel then might as well use it.
Its really the only way to know for sure . Out doors is the best cure for a indoor grow gone bad...
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#6 truMushrooms

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 11:49 PM

You make a good point there! I guess spawning and hoping for the best would be the best way to go if time is a constraint.

If the myc has overrun the bacteria then that's a big plus. Trich is aggressive though and only a few of my cultures have been able to over run it, Mazatepec being the only cube that comes comes to mind as well as Oyster mycelium. 


Edited by truMushrooms, 07 April 2016 - 11:51 PM.


#7 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:01 AM

You make a good point there! I guess spawning and hoping for the best would be the best way to go if time is a constraint.
If the myc has overrun the bacteria then that's a big plus. Trich is aggressive though and only a few of my cultures have been able to over run it, Mazatepec being the only cube that comes comes to mind as well as Oyster mycelium.

Right on ya i never had myc over run trich either but when ive put the triched sub out side at the right time of year more often then not its gone on to throw up some monsters.
That and the tritch has a way of disapating
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#8 Myc

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 07:36 AM

Invisibilitysyndrome - is dead-on correct in thinking that these grains can be used outdoors.

 

In the past, a certain "other" project became contaminated with bacteria. An outdoor bed was made and the contaminated spawn was introduced. One month later, the bed produced fungi. Bacteria cannot stand fresh air and competition. 

 

Here's the account:

Liquid Culture was used to start 3 quart jars of RGS.

Once colonized, the RGS jars were added to sterilized spawnbags which contained 3 jars' worth of seed.

In all, once inoculated, the bags contained the equivalent of 4 total quart jars - per bag. The spawn size is not the problem - nor was sterilization method. After 8 years of intensive study, this is definitely not my first fungus rodeo. 

 

I can't stress this enough.......

Bacteria - cannot be killed. It creates endospores which cannot be destroyed by high heat. I posted a scientific study once where this hypothesis was studied and supported in detail. I will scrounge for the article and see if I can find it again.

 

What happened:

The live mycelium began rampant colonization.

The increase in bio-activity raised the temperatures above 80*F due to the fact that I had just placed these bags all in a single cardboard box for darknes. The bags were nested together - snuggled.

Bacterial endospores began to awaken and increase the heat - generating more bacteria

 

Exactly 24 hours after spawning - I went to admire the culture progress and noticed that the bags (while looking perfect) were "fever-ish". They were warmer than my body temperature. 

I knew what was going-on and immediately broke up the colonized grain mass to reduce the temperatures. I then laid out the bags with the grains spread as thinly as possible and tried to see if they would recover. Several random checks showed that the bacteria had become well-established (sour apple smell issuing from the filter patch) but the mycelium was still there.

 

Since these King Oyster mushrooms were so aggressive - colonizing in the refrigerator - I decided to go ahead and stick them on the composted straw bales of my garden. This was not the original plan but I thought they stood a better chance if placed on a more level playing field (compost as opposed to experimental substrates).

Upon spawning and watering, the healthy smell of mycelium was present. 

I then cased the bales with some worm-laden compost to help preserve moisture and provide some living inoculators to spread the mycelium.

The environment now waters with an automatic drip system. It's out of my hands. Now I just wait and see what comes.

 

It's just discouraging to fall victim when "I knew better" - shameful.

I had declared (to my family) that this years' garden was going to be my thesis. ( I never went to college )

Strangely, it still is. Fruiting King Oysters from contaminated grains - outdoors - is still a demonstration of observed science. 

 

As for the timing........

I went to work on this in January so I would be sure and still have a little cold weather with which to get ahead.

Over the years, I've learned that "food" mushrooms will run in cold conditions. Cold temperatures suppress other organisms like mold and bacteria.

I've also learned that beds spawned after late April or early May fall prey to local predators (molds, bugs) who awaken from their winter rest and eat everything living thing in sight. Let's just say that I almost shed a tear between bouts of kicking myself.

 

I'm trying to learn to sustain myself from my backyard. I want to be able to stop going to the "grocery store" as a practice-run for what our sociopathic world leadership has planned for us. Better yet, I intend to increase the quality of the foods I eat in the hopes of improving my mental coping skills and problem-solving abilities in the lead-up to this inevitable disaster. Buckle-up campers, your leadership does not have your best interests at heart. 

I'm just glad to get the practice part out of the way while there still is a grocery store from which to purchase "shit" to eat. It certainly beats starving to death simply because I fucked-up my garden.

 

Best to learn this stuff now - before our lives depend upon it.

Best to archive this knowledge now and pass it to our friends/neighbors/loved ones. Starving times are coming again someday - our leadership veritably assures us of this fact. It's scary to know that many folks don't know where food comes from........much less how to raise it successfully. Fast-forward one or two more generations and revisit this thought. Very scary indeed.

 

"Peaches come from a can. They were put there by a man, in a factory downtown." - The Presidents of the United States of America.

 

 

 

 


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#9 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 09:43 AM

nice post
knowing does not always mean doing I ride that line all the time I still use an incubatior 4 grain spawn set at 75 degrees.
I do however not do 4lb grain bags anymore cause they inevitably get infected. Now if i didt use the incubatior hell if i lowered the temp im sure 4lb would do just fine.

Either way i like 2lbs now its deff about doing what works for me anyways.

So would you say anything over 80 internal temp is a recipe for disaster?
I mean i think i know the answer but not technically why.
is it a bacteria rejuvination point, 80 degrees and up?

I deff agree w you on the food points. Weve been growing for 3 years in a row with good success we did how ever have a dry year last and the bugs came in full force.

Havig a plethora of food affords the ability to give it sell it and venture down avenuse like pickling.

May thru November are my happiest months.
I have gotten into static hydro grows
Started with basil last year and had smashing results.
5 lb from a 2x3 ft 5in deep box.

My best meals are ones that come mostly from the yard.
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#10 Cue

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 09:50 AM

Bacteria gets a bad rap.

I happen to be a big fan of it for growing mushrooms.

 

Here is one example of why I appreciate it

http://www.buzzle.co...l-bacteria.html

 

Beneficial Bacteria - to the Environment
 
One of the famous names among bacteria which are helpful for the environment is Rhizobium. These bacteria are also known as nitrogen-fixing bacteria. They are present in the root nodules of plants and fix the nitrogen present in the atmosphere. They are considered to be very helpful to the environment. The other most important work of the bacteria in the environment is to breakdown the organic waste material which helps in maintaining fertility of the soil. Azotobacters are the group of bacteria which convert the gaseous nitrogen into nitrates which is further used by Rhizobium for nitrogen-fixing. 

Edited by Pastafarian, 08 April 2016 - 09:52 AM.

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#11 Myc

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:20 PM

So would you say anything over 80 internal temp is a recipe for disaster?
I mean i think i know the answer but not technically why.
is it a bacteria rejuvination point, 80 degrees and up?
 

 

Yes. Period. Just my experience in messing with spawn bags. I wanted to see how much I could get in a single bag. Many failures later, I arrived at my current compromise. 

The bags each contain:

4.5 cups of annual rye grass seed ( 6 cups total once the bag is spawned )

2.25 cups of tap water

1/2 teaspoon calcium carbonate

PC @15 psi for 1 hour

 

This recipe is only for fast colonizers. Stropharia rugosoannulata is very slow. A recipe for such a specie will require moisture and PC time adjustment. More failures and experiments I'm not willing to explore any longer. I found my magic mix and I'm happy. The moisture content comes out perfect - every time. Oysters and shiitake rip right through it.

There's something about being above 78*F with fungal experiments. Without automated temperature regulation, it's what I consider to be "walking the edge". I like to start early and capitalize on available ambient temperatures. I let certain parts of the house get very cold for fruiting temperate species during the winter. By lowering the thermostat, temperatures can be dropped into the 50's indoors - piece of cake. Slower colonization just gives more time for project prep.

If a project colonizes ahead of schedule, I just put them in the refrigerator to slow them down more until I'm ready.

 

@ Pasta

Don't get me wrong my man. I'm not bacteria bashing at all. Were it not for bacteria..........we wouldn't be. At all. 

Microbes are king.

They have my absolute respect. After all, they can survive the autoclave in certain substrates. Likely, they can survive the vacuum of outer-space. The only way I know of to completely eradicate them is flame, plasma, or focused/concentrated radiation.

Thanks for the link.



#12 Il19z8rn4li1

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 09:34 AM

bummer :( 

 

Been there.



#13 Myc

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 05:34 PM

Sooooo...........

Looks like I'm going to get something for my efforts after all. I'm tickled.

They're hiding all over the bales. I should be harvesting throughout the week as the garden seedlings take hold in the casing layer I used. 

Awesome! Being able to harvest as vegetable crop matures was the goal !!!

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#14 PsyBearknot

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 06:26 PM

DUDE! I'm so happy to see they are popping up!

I love that you are harvesting food so early in the season!

#15 Il19z8rn4li1

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 08:22 AM

Thats greatness Myc.



#16 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 08:25 AM

And proof that nature will handle the rest.
This is from the contamed spawn im assuming
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#17 Myc

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Posted 08 May 2016 - 05:16 PM

I've been having a ball going and checking on these every day. It's like an Easter egg hunt. Fresh primordia are developing and it looks like the harvest may continue for some time yet.

 

Hoping this thread can help a future cultivator recover from a similar mistake.

 

Contaminated spawn is fine to use in outdoor projects. I have proven this to myself now twice. 

 

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#18 Mycol

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 01:53 PM

Dude you have my gears SPINNING !

I’ve got a few questions though and I am sure that I will have more later . When you say “composted straw” what do you mean exactly ? I have a few dozen bales of wheat straw . Did you soak yours for a couple weeks to compost it ?

Would this work in the fall you think ?

#19 Myc

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 02:17 PM

I followed the work of Joel Karsten - Straw Bale Gardening and the work of Jeff Lowenfels - Teaming with Microbes.

My project was an adaptation of information from both resources - not detailed step-by-step in either camp. I just read, experiment and observe.

 

I first "seasoned" my straw bales with a mix of kelp meal, bone meal, blood meal, and crushed oyster shell.

The Straw Bale Gardening book can really expand upon this process but it's pretty simple.

After applying the "seasoning" I wet the bales and cover them with a tarp to hold moisture and help regulate heat. The bales will begin the process of composting and will generate heat up to 160*F. You can use the tarp to trap heat or release heat as necessary.

Try to maintain the 140-160* temps until they begin to drop.

Once below 120*F - The bales are ready for placement into the garden setup (in my case a flower bed). Inoculate the bales with an entire spawn bag, case the bale with soil or compost and plant your choice of seedlings. Some plants pair well with King Oyster - Others, not so much. You'll just have to play with that and see for yourself.

I had good luck with lettuce.

Not so much luck with carrots or radishes.

Someone later told me that King Oysters have this tendency - to be dis-favorable to certain garden plants.

 

Hoping your project goes well. Good luck!


Edited by Myc, 15 July 2021 - 02:18 PM.

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#20 Myc

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 04:30 PM


I'm trying to learn to sustain myself from my backyard. I want to be able to stop going to the "grocery store" as a practice-run for what our sociopathic world leadership has planned for us. Better yet, I intend to increase the quality of the foods I eat in the hopes of improving my mental coping skills and problem-solving abilities in the lead-up to this inevitable disaster. Buckle-up campers, your leadership does not have your best interests at heart. 

I'm just glad to get the practice part out of the way while there still is a grocery store from which to purchase "shit" to eat. It certainly beats starving to death simply because I fucked-up my garden.

 

Best to learn this stuff now - before our lives depend upon it.

Best to archive this knowledge now and pass it to our friends/neighbors/loved ones. Starving times are coming again someday - our leadership veritably assures us of this fact. It's scary to know that many folks don't know where food comes from........much less how to raise it successfully. Fast-forward one or two more generations and revisit this thought. Very scary indeed.

 

"Peaches come from a can. They were put there by a man, in a factory downtown." - The Presidents of the United States of America.

And here we are in 2021 realizing  the fulfillment of prophecy. The gubbamint shut the world down in order to serve their own ends and basically fuck everyone over.

Anyone doubt the mechanism or methodology now? Anyone doubt that the gubbamint can force the world to stop??

Buckle-up campers. Learn to grow your own. 'Cause they ain't done playing Pandemic Panic Shut-down Party ™ just yet. Unless you plan on eating the next chump-change stimulus check. Bwahahahahahahaha!!


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