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#1 BlackPeter17

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 02:47 PM

it is with deep sorrow I reach out for comfort and perspective as my marriage crumbles before my eyes.  I regret not ending my relationship sooner however I am not married of 7 years and have 2 children a 4yo and a 1yo.  since my 1st born, we have had serious issues with intimacy (mental as well as physical) and also moral battles, and financial struggles.  my wife chooses to conform to society, adopts a conservative approach to christianity and supports the patriarchal model of life.  i.e. man head of house, breadwinner, women submissive and a house wife and nurturer of children.  she presents an image of femininity to my daughters that I do not agree with at all and chooses to conform to society and the princess model shaving her body hair and using make up and dress to make herself pretty and wishes to pass this legacy onto my girls.  while I myself as a man no nothing of what it means to be a woman today in 2016, I can assure anybody that god does not will anyone to alter their natural presentation especially to accentuate false differences between genders.  we have serious financial struggles with debt (both carry student loans, car payments, and credit cards).  we own nothing except what we wear on our backs and are unable to break even every month with the everyday expenses of healthcare and life and this is with me producing 90% of our income at the expense of my physical presence in the home, my wife makes a few dollars more then me an hour, and has access to better cheeper healthcare if she chooses to work and her hourly rate would be somewheres 38-45 an hour and has options to work any hour out the 24 hrs in a day, and also any day of the 7 per week.  I myself make around 38 dollars but am at the top of my pay scale at a job I hate.  however I can self schedule my hours and am able to work what ever I want 24-60 hours a week at that rate but have poor expensive health care.  currently we pay around $6000 a year and have individual deductibles of $2500 and family deductible of $5000.  this is the equivalent of taking mourned $11,000 off my income before taxes, so if I were to work a job were I worked 40 hours a week at a respectable place the annual income would be $54,000 (median for my occupation).  after health insurance and taxes that is roughly 36,000 a year which is 800 dollars less (negative) then our monthly running costs of basic necessities.  if we both worked part time (24 hours a week) we would be at +$2000, and be equal contributors to our homeschooling dreams.  our children would not have to go to daycare, and we would not have any expenses of childcare, they would always be with one of us.  

 

where does god fit into the destruction of my family?

 

Over the past four years my spirituality has changed as a christian as I have lost my ego, and educated my self to the history of my lord.  my wife has also changed and become more conservative she is homophobic, and also believes marijuana to be a sin even though it is legal in my state.  she condems me for using marijuana and wishes to teach my children that it is a sin even though we both know they will likely try it. she feels I'm a poor role model for my kids because I smoke and grow marijuana.  I respect that I child should not use marijuana until age of 21 and understand it may be harmful to them and do not smoke in the house or around them and my plant is secured and in accordance with state laws.  

 

she believes that god made man to provide financially for their families, and that women were made to be house wives and nurtures of the children.  she offers that after I work 60 hours a week I can have what ever time I want to try and nurture my children however I feel I am so physically and mentally drained at the end of the day that I feel nurture to be a burden so it is at the expense of my relationship with my children.  she feels that I need jesus for strength to overcome these weaknesses and that my absence of physical presence to everyday life is god ordained.  

 

she accuses me of laziness for not being able to provide for my families, even though I have no friends, and no hobbies.  all my time is devoted to house hold chores, children rearing and work.  I wish to decrease my hours to 24 a week so I can spend more time with my children and participate in homeschooling more actively.  sure I smoke marijuana every day thats not something I try to hide, but my conscious is clear and my heart is with god and my family.  

 

she accuses me of being controlling, and verbally abusive because I lash out when I feel threatened as she tries to push me into breadwinning, and fit me in a box of what she thinks a "saved christian should look like".  accusing me of trying to control her because I have told her she must work part time now as she's been out of work for a year with our second born.  to me our family our family to survive and get out of dept and possibly get a place of our own (even if its a shed in the woods I hold no passiveness to material possessions) we have to work together as partners.  I understand that breast feeding on demand is an important thing for a child for the first two years of its life, but I also understand that a baby will accommodate a working schedule by increasing nursing when ever mom is available and decreasing when mom isn't home.  my wife states she intends to not work or work less then 8 hours a week as long as we have children under five and she wants to have a 3rd next year.  we have piles of incoming unexpected bills from medical expenses, taxes, ect.  her car is going to need serious service over the next year if it even lasts that long in which she will need another one.  the future is unknown and to me running a family on negative every month is not an option.  sure her and I as well as children can decrease our needs to accommodate poverty but theres no money to contribute to education and when homeschooling that makes things difficult.  

 

we have been to a licensed family counselor two years ago before my second was conceived when she advised us to not have any more children, and to get a divorce.  I wanted to have more children and I wanted to make my wife happy.  at the time we were both working part time and finishing out bachelors degrees.  I never in a million years anticipated her being out of work for this past year.  in Jan 2016 we consulted a pastor of a church as a last resort.  this is the birth of the conservative in my wife as he instructed the very things my wife holds onto now.  that god does not intend women to work, but made house work for women to serve and nurture children.  and that men are to provide financially for the family as they are incapable of nurturing as women are as god did not make men to nurture.  when this happened I rejected the pastor, the church, and my wife.  we fought for months, then at her request consulted another pastor for counsling at another church who confirms that god does not specifically designate gendered family roles.  however insists that a man is supposed to submit to a wives every desire and that my wife is desiring to not work so I must honor it or I am going against gods will of a husband and wife.  

 

since my wife believes that her body is a temple of god, she refuses to use a vibrator anymore or provide clitoral stimulation during sex (mine or herself).  she believes that sex is for making children, she refuses any form of contraception (even pulling out), refuses to participate in sex, but will offer her body as a sacrifice to the lord at my request. since then I have moved away from sex with her.  since we can't have a conversation for 10 minutes without disrespecting each other why should we be having sex anyway? so after a significant period of sexlessness I got caught by her meeting my needs while watching porn.  she insists that I have now cheated on her, even though she knows that I view porn as I have made it a goal to not view porn twice only failed due to 30-36 days of no physical contact or sex what so ever.  each time I failed at going porn free I told her.  back when we dated we viewed porn together many times, and utilized sex toys for mutual fulfillment.  my viewing pornography should not have been a surprise.  However, I do agree that porn is bad, and I would boycott it as I realize it promotes violence against women, and I do not see it in a committed relationship.  while I try to accept that my wifes body is not made for my physical pleasure, and that viewing her body as a sex object is harmful to her sexuality, at the same time I have needs.  since our first born she insists that breast are not a sexual organ, and that they are for feeding children giving her the right to take them out any time, anywhere to feed the child (which I support) yet retracting them from me and not offering them (or really any of her body) to the sexual experience.  

 

things have taken a turn for the worse.  she is now 3000+ miles away from me with my children.  I told her she has to work or leave and live with her family.  I do not will my children to be away from me, but will not break them apart if my wife resists. and its not an option.  so now we stand, divided.  She insists that she is unable to work any more then 5-8 hours a week, and refuses to accept that I am unable to work full time as I will to nurture my children as well and be a physical part of their life.  besides, even if I did commit every hour I had to paid employment we would still be in debt and my children would suffer.  so why waste my time at work loosing my kids when its not enough anyway.  

 

I demand equality or no relationship at all.  I demand a co-parental, co-earner relationship family co-op where everybody does their share including children.  I demand equal rights with my children including the right to veto any educational aspect I do not agree with (primary her narrow religious views) if she is able to veto mine (she wishes to teach gods vision of humanity as binary and homsexuality to be a sin, ect.  I demand equal time to nurture my children including equal time to care for children needs without other partner present (time to bond), and I demand equal time for self development, social life, and equal commitment to financial family support unless one of us is physical disabled or unable due to illness/injury.  basically I demand an egalitarian relationship, unfortunately its up against the cost of loosing a family altogether. 

 

I understand the problems associated with children growing up without their biological father present, and I understand that if Im fighting for more time with my kids that the expense of my marriage seems contradictory however I have accepted that I can still nurture my children as a non resident father.  I care for my children deeply but can't go on anymore.  I have been asking for help from my wife for 5 years and she's done nothing but degrade/disrespect me by believing i am not a man because I don't provide money for my family, corner me and force me out of my home to spend all my time working to meet the demands of a working class family of 2016, and also denying me the ability to choose a job for happiness/self fullfillment as my employment choices are based on pay not on choice, denied me the time for self development to grow as a person due to stress and work, and also denied me the right to be the father I want to be by enforcing gender roles in my family.  

 

hugs, help, and support are needed.  


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#2 CatsAndBats

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 03:53 PM

I read this with deep sorrow and deep empathy. 

 

Since it appears as if your wife has lost her ability to reason, and has adopted the dogma of christianity and rejected the underlying love that it is supposed to be based upon, it may be the time to move forward with divorce proceedings. 

 

Lawyer up. Find the most aggressive pro-father/husband lawyer that you can afford. It's going to be a tedious and a trying time for you, but work as hard as you can and let the process work for you. In our secular, pro-inclusive, non-binary society, it won't be difficult for a good lawyer to paint the picture needed to loosen her grip on you and your children.

 

In the meantime, instead of sending money, perhaps send grocery store gift cards/vouchers, gift cards for children's clothing stores and such. Keep receipts, document everything.

 

We do live in a secular society and if a court deems her a detriment to her children, you will get custody.

 

It pains me to read that you are in such a bad space, and I hope this message finds you with the love that it is sent with.

 

-regards, cat

 

https://www.divorcelawyersformen.com/

 

http://www.attorneys...torney-for-men/

 

http://cordellcordell.com/

 

The above links are just starting points, like I said, get the most aggressive lawyer that you can afford. It's literally how our system works. At least you have reason AND love on your side.


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#3 BlackPeter17

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 05:14 PM

thanks cat.  through all this bullshit I am loosing myself.  I consider myself to be pro feminist, yet my actions reveal a different story.  I first wish to change my actions even if we do indeed divorce.  I need to respect her as a women, respect her right to control of her own body, respect her decisions to work or not to work.  Even with a broken family if we can show our children that we at least respect each other maybe it won't be so hard for the children.  I also need to control myself because my girls are watching and I do not want them to think that its ok for men to disrespect women by yelling, controlling, ect but at the same time I don't want to demonstrate to them that it is ok to disrespect men by the things she is doing to me infront of them. but I refuse to take her back as a dependent.  

 

her family is divorced, so this is the example of history repeated itself. she found me as an acceptable mate because subconsciously she knew I would fulfill her destiny.  even though her parents divorce ended due to infidelity and I have remained committed (except the porn thing) to her through times of serious drought.  I'm talking a month of time without even a pat on the back.  so this is the way it ends, she demonstrates that she has learned what a father is supposed to be through her father.  providing checks.  and whether I like it or not, whether I am a resident father, or a non resident father she will teach her children this is what a father is again so the cycle repeats.  I'm only a pawn in the game.  



#4 wharfrat

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 10:52 PM

i been trying to find the right words that would answer any questions.. I am from a different type of person all together, not being affiliated with any religion as it is know today. I have had many years, especially during the early child rearing years that we had go through spme of the same issues as you are describing.. we are still together after 27 years, married 23.. was really tough at times (most the time) our youngest is now 17 and we still have issues, but nothing like the beginning. so i offer up this  :hug:  for you.. i wish you all the best


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#5 Coopdog

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 02:35 AM

Wow Dire, I want to answer this but also would not want to offend you by my words so please forgive me if anything I say appears offensive. First off I very much respect the effort you have put into all of this. Now for the part I fear may be offensive. It seems from what you have written that your wife is suffering from some sort of mental illness. In this society and time that we are living in, it is mostly impossible to get by financially on one income. Your wife refusing to work because that is God's will is completely unreasonable. With good meat costing up to $19.00 a pound and hamburger at $8.00 there is no way most people can get by on one income.

 

My wife does not work due to health issues. We are very fortunate that I have found a job that pays me enough that we can get by on one income. Even still I make a similar hourly wage as you, but I work 40+ hours a week just to barely cover our basics of life. I have spent a lot of time reading the bible, and for the life of me I cannot come up with any text that supports her point of view. The husband and the wife are supposed to be partners and if she supports a patriarchal household, she would do what you deem to be necessary to make things work and not use her religion as a reason not to do what needs done to survive. She is using that as a copout and I cannot for the life of me imagine any man of God or Pastors that would tell her she was right in her thinking.

 

Sex is a whole other subject and again if she truly supported that patriarchal paradigm she would do what needs to be done to support her patriarch. That being said, there are times in life, such as when young ones come into it all that sex sometimes falls to the wayside. A good marriage will withstand this and hopefully things will get back on track as the motherly duties lessen as the nursing comes to an end. I hate to tell you that it seems you don't have that sort of marriage. I hate to see any marriage fail but sometimes it is necessary and the right thing to do. A bad marriage is not good for the children nor the parents.

 

I grew pot all through my kids younger years. That was NOT the right thing for me to do either. There are other ways to fill that void and I feel immense sadness that I put my family through that stress that I thought at the time was so necessary to my mental health. I see on hindsight how shallow and weak that was of me and I hate it that I did that despite the fact that this could have cost me my freedom, my employment, and my marriage. Thankfully for me it did not and we were able to get through that. Probably helped that my wife loves pot as much as I did, whereas this is a major obstacle for you. I'd like to say that I would have changed if it had been for me, but I doubt that looking back on it now.

 

Hate to say it but I agree with Cat who said it above. Lawyer up and get on with life. The marriage is over already if she is 3,000 miles away. It sounds like you know this already as you said yourself you will not be taking her back as a dependent. Hang in there and hold your head up man. You have a lot of life ahead of you and I am very lucky to still have my wife after 34 years of me being such a knucklehead.

 

Hang in there and feel free to pm me anytime.


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#6 prof_it_e

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 03:33 AM

Sounds like a mess; strength to you Direwolf13 in this difficult time. If I can share a few abstract thoughts... I've always felt uncomfortable about the prototypes that are fed to us and as time passes it seems to me the whole go to church, go to school, go to varsity, get a job, get married, have kids, buy a car, buy a house and fill it with stuff thing is not a good way to go and seems to be especially not a good way to go as the world moves into a very different space than it was fifty years ago. The man / woman / marriage thing is very complicated. It seems to me whoever came up with the idea we have of how that's meant to work wasn't very grounded in reality ~ didn't have any insight at all involving human beings. It's an idea like what an accountant would come up with, or a banker, or a lawyer, someone able to make it look good on paper but not in practice. No, I'm not sure about the egalitarian thing, it does make sense from a particular perspective but it's a flawed perspective to start. As much as something can be made to look good on paper the fact is we are at the mercy of our biology. On top of that there's the whole social dimension. If you build these into it then the picture starts to look a bit different. What a picture looks like for these things to be accommodated doesn't involve a man and a woman holed up in a house trying to raise children, and if it does look like that then it includes a lot of unhappiness and frustration. For what the picture should look like that excludes the unhappiness and frustration take a look at what's available; what the set-up is like for animals that are similar to us, or how we lived ourselves before we got confused by all the fancy stuff that came along. The woman and kids and the elderly do stay at home and take care of the domestic stuff. Raising kids is a communal thing. The guys are the protectors and the providers. Sex is mostly reproductive and the same ideas involving monogamy and recreational sex are largely not applicable. My point is it's no wonder it doesn't work out like in the movies. Whoever came along with that version of happily ever after should be shot in the head. In the meantime I guess we are all just the casualties of some pretty silly thinking.


Edited by prof_it_e, 05 June 2016 - 03:34 AM.

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#7 BlackPeter17

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 12:24 PM

thanks guys I appreciate the feedback, and support.  a couple of updates:

I have requested that any time we communicate, it be strictly through FaceTime as texting and phone chatting takes the "personibility" (if you will) out of forgiveness, and non verbal communication is so important in communication that when facing difficult problems you really truly need to see somebody face to face.  

updates with chiildren:

I have requested to have alone time with my 4 year old on FaceTime to talk about life and what ever, not about anything that is going on.  I also was able to read her a story last night before bed time.  I requested specifically to have just her in the room, but if she is scared to be alone then my wife can be there.  this is not because I want to poison her mind or whatever but strictly due to the fact that she is easily distracted and if I only get 5 minutes, I want every second.  last night during my five minute conversation while reading her a story my mother in law walks into the room and says "sorry just need to get something out of the drawer".   :mad: are you kidding me, what did you need so bad in the spare bedroom that you couldn't get before or after you new my daughter was in bed talking with me.  I specifically don't want her in the room because I loth her and my wifes unwillingness to find comfort in me, always confiding in her mother.  well I finished up the story and kissed her through the phone.  although I understand the problems children face not growing up with their biological father in the house, I hope we can over come those if I create and maintain a bond with her through FaceTime.  soldiers do it, many fathers are in prison and they still bond with their kids.  so anyway although its unnatural I feel it can be done.

updates with my wife:  

last night we facetimed and she said she was "hopeful" and wanted to know that I was hopeful.  I responded with I am 90% hopeless considering I have given you an ultimatum to our relationship (although really there is no other option, read the writing on the wall), therefore if she returns she will be full of resentment and our relationship will suffer.  but I digress, of course I am hopeful that she wakes up and realizes that this is our life, and we are grown ups now.  this is a communal effort, not a single effort to bare the load.  I feel in order for homeschooling to succeed there needs to be 100% inclusion and involvement.  it is extremely difficult for 1 person can not home school multiple children at varrying ages and my children would benefit from multiple teachers to get a more well rounded education and perspective on life.  financial provision should be a group effort, not a sole devotion.  I believe that children benefit from multiple caretakers, it enhances their ability to communicate.  if there is 1 sole caretaker the need to communicate needs is necessary because that 1 caretaker will be able to read the child and know how to respond without verbal communication.  when I see her on face time, I do still feel that love in my heart for her, even at times of anger and tears I can't help but smile just from the sight of her.  

 

on gendered roles in the family, and to a lesser extent gender roles in the bible:

listen, through my studies of history, religion, and anthropology I can assure any challenger that there is no gender roles.  the evolution of humankind/ the peopling of the world, and yes I am a christian using the word evolution, there are no gender roles to anything.  it is a proven fact that the diet of nomads, and indigenous peoples was approximately 70% grains/veg and 30% meat (this is off the top of my head so don't look it up and quote me to prove me wrong) but anyway the whole mentality that men are to provide and protect is a bunch of patriachical bullshit fed to us to lessen womens roles in life.  (sorry to be so blunt).  sure men spent majority of time hunting, but they did so with their children.  and also while hunting they were NOT providing for their families they were demonstrating their masculinity and frivolous use of time as majority of time spent was lost as they didn't always bag an antelope.  instead the diet of the early people was reliant on grains, fruits, and gathered substance which was primarily the responsibility of women.  HOWEVER in order to take down a large animal, such as a mastodon if you will it is proven that it takes the whole community sometimes even multiple communities including women.  at the age of 31 I consider myself well educated in regards to fathering and could stand up against anybody willing to debate.  bread winning is not what fathering is about, fathering is up to the individual and if an individual feels satisfied in breadwinning then so be it.  the ideology that men are supposed to provide money that still exists today is largely due to the fact that once divorced, the father (or mother no adays, but most likely the father) will be required to pay a detirmined amount of money mandated by the court.  all is well and justified right? wrong, this demonstrates that all is required from a father is money, instead the court should be ordering the father to spend x mount of time nurturing their fucking children and tell the spouse to get off their ass and do something with themselves.  prior to the mid 1700's fatherhood was based around the ideology that children are ill willed, and a fathers role was to beat them into submission to make rebuild them up.  after around 1780 maybe fathers began to name their children after them demonstrating a more caring responsibility and found more time spent on educating children, passing down gifts and talents to earn a living. fathers would spend all their time with children as apprentices, or out in the fields on the farm.  the way of life was a family effort and each family member was responsible for the families needs of house chores, food production, and financial provision however children were generally extorted by their parents.  child labor laws, and also industrialization changes this folks.  after the industrial revolution you see fathers ripped from their farms to work in factories.  this is when the new age "provider" role developing.  now a father was forced to work away from home and earning a family wage because somebody had to take care of the children (however women participation in the labor force was prevalent but seen at the bottom of the chain working in mills and factories extorted by men).  BREADWINNING AT ITS PEAK 1950-1960 30% of women with children under the age of 5 still worked at least part time, and even more were estimated to be working they just weren't working on the books or being paid for their work.  yes 30%.  so that means even at its peak of 70% stay at home moms, and with the family wage most families found it hard to get by on one income.  today we see the opposite.  70+% of mothers in america work at least part time, and also the 30% of stay at home moms can be divided further into smaller percentages of ethnic groups were women arnt allowed to work, uneducated women who's pay doesn't justify work, and likely 19-20% of the 30% families will be living in poverty.  this is the truth based on us labor statistics.  

 

gender roles in the bible:

christians can be divided into two categories if you will and their maturity of faith is irrelevant to me.  there are christians who in my opinion idolize (capital sin to me folks) god to be a man, or even white. and base their faith and life on what they read in the bible and on particular christian interpretations of particular bible translations.  their faith in my opinion is weak.  they need an image to bow down to, they need a script to adhere to.  and there are the christians like myself who read the bible in its most natural form and literal translation which can be found only in the NRSV (new revised standard version).  we read the bible for what it is, holy literature of the time which was written by man, not god.  while these men may have been influenced by the holy spirit and living pure within gods will their barrier is this.  they are man, not god.  they still live in a culture (who at the time felt women and homosexuals to be inferior).  therefore certain translations may be found to be inacurate and in my option the work of satan.  the old testimate itself exists in a difficult language to translate even to jews, very few people can read old hebrew today.  and even so, was written without punctuation, lo line breaks space breaks, ect.  so a translation is subject to the interpreters interpretation of who it should read.  there for while I do agree that a christian may not be judged wrongly for living "by the bible", but only if their conscience is clean.  and also a christian who does not "live by the bible" may not be judged wrongly but only if their conscience is clear.  specifically to christians i hold what makes one clean or unclean may not make another and nobody but god alone can judge that.  so by telling people that homosexuality is a sin, smoking marijuana is a sin against god, that not providing financial support is a sin, not submitting to your husbands request for sex is a sin, or divorcing your wife because she is crazy is a sin can not be done by man alone.  the individual man must come to their own conclusion between them and god.  and to me if a man is in a monogamous relationship with another man then god will honor that commitment as long as their conscience is clear.  and even if a man has promiscuous sex with other men and women they are not any different then the majority of heterosexuals today.  infact I my self have had a number of sexual partners and even a few I regret, ones that I used, ones that I disrespected.  how is that any different from a bisexual or a homosexual?  and as far as marijuana is concerned when I smoke, I don't sit on the couch and play video games.  sure I may smoke to relax and watch a movie, the same way somebody may have a drink when socializing or relaxing in the tub.  but marijuan is so psychoactive for me the majority of the time I spend on marijauan is with my conscience and it is not debating on weather or not I should smoke marijuan, but it is about whether or not I am living in accordance to gods will and I see more clearly my faults.  I do not hide from god when I use marijuana, I further my communication and response to god.  and someday I would love to be there in that place without marijuana but right now thats where I am.  as far as gender roles in the bible the most common verse that is thrown around to hold men in a bread winning role is timothy 5:8 so lets look at it, because I have as it was thrown at me by a pastor and also my wife.  

king james:

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel

NRSV:

And whoever does not provide for relatives, and especially for family members, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

ok so what the fuck.  well if the nrsv is the most literal translation and when interpreting the bible it is best to use the most literal translation we see non gendered roles.  because indeed the words that were originally used were not gender specific, they were changed by somebody.  notice the name of the king james version.  whats in a name?  well looks like a king.  notice all old translations of bible were translated for specific purposes.  and also they were translated by rich people, who were all men.  and today most translation teams are largely men because women are excluded...  looks to me to be quite fishy.  but in general this verse in its most basic form is in regards to taking care of widows, because the church is unable to take the burden of caring for a widow.  its not aimed at a man in a marriage.  also the gendered pronouns seen in most bible translations exist because english is a SEXIST language. we always refer to things in the male pronoun.  

 

‚Äčotherwise you don't see much else other then paul telling women to be quite in the church, and to be makers of the home.  but in proverbs 31 we see a different story of women making home and making money.  everything else related to gendered roles in the family in christianity is based on sexist interpretations that are from poor translations aimed at keeping women subservient and submissive.  and again these are interpretations not actual dictations written in the bible.  

 

‚Äčin the end, in my opinion christ came to redeem anyone with an open heart.  jew, slave, homo, female, male, gentile, ect.  and even paul himself says elsewhere that in christ there is no man, or women, no greek nor jew.  but all who are in christ are one.  thats right bitches 1.  we are all one here and we are all equal.  anybody enforcing anybody to do something against their on will or conscience is committing a capital sin in my opinion.  and that applies to having sex when not willing it, that applies to breadwinning when not willing it, ect.  and I am not forcing my wife to do anything against her own will.  for our family to survive she must work, or live with her mother as a dependent because I can't carry her and have a clean conscience with my children.  HOWEVER in coops case, as is many others including my friend who was a stay at home sad while undergoing chemo.  if a family member is sick, or disabled it is perfectly fine for their partner to assume the roles, but even so the state will likely be kicking in money for disability.  but at a minimum if my wife was not well then I would not will her to work.  but indeed she is well, healthy, and 28 years old never worked more then 32 hours in her entire life.  and since I've been with her since age 16, I can tell you she's not worked more then 3-4 years total.  she can go to work part time, she will be ok in the end its the children that will suffer if she doesn't.  and I also don't want her to work if it truly against her will/conscience that is why I asked her to leave.  because if she wills to not work then she should find a man who is capable of giving her what she needs and I am 100% ok with that.  I would even by happy in a co-parent situation where I work with another man who lives with my children to meet their needs.  you see its all bout my seeds.  their needs will be met, even if I remain sexless, or alone watching somebody else meet them. I'm ok with that.  it is well.    

-edit-

but I will be damned if my girls be taught to be subservient, submissive to men, or house wives against their will especially by some conservative asshole using gods name and word wrongly. and will fight till the death to save them from this. 


Edited by Direwolf13, 05 June 2016 - 12:27 PM.

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#8 Skywatcher

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 05:12 PM

First of all my friend, I want you to know I respect you for the IMO exceptional amount of effort you have shown to try to make this work, and the respect you have given  when faced with such am unfair and unreasonable situation.

You deserve to be an equal part of your childrens upbringing, and have done as much to be so as you can, but it seems you are up against an unfair and unreasonable pile of expectations placed upon you.. I respect your beliefs, but I am sorry to say you are the one who is being abused in this relationship. You have my support and caring,  :hug:

 

I am trying to leave religion out of my response. I know you well enough that I believe you will be true to your faith, as it is believed by you. What I see missing in your description of your situation, is where you are treated with love, and respect in return. This is 2016, and living in this world requires us to adapt. Compromise is a necessity in any successful relationship, or it is doomed to fail.

 

I do not see any of your expectations as unreasonable or unfair. I am sorry, but I agree you need to find a lawer who will help you fight for your rights to be an equal part of your own childrens upbringing. You cannot stop them from hearing your wifes interpretation of what she believes, but you can teach them to make their own choices and be a man they can respect, and know that you love them.

 

You deserve a marriage that is based on love, and not treated like a business contract. I hope you can find this, but it does not sound like it will be with this woman.

 

I hope none of this offends you, as I would not intend it that way. I do not see that you have done anything wrong. I hope for only the best outcome for you my friend.


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#9 August West

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 06:12 PM

That sounds like a very rough situation you've gotten yourself into and I truly empathize with it.

 

I don't have much advice as to how to deal with it but it is my hope that your children are able to hear from you how and why you did get into this situation. It will only be until those of us who've made mistakes in our choices are able to make them explicit to those who follow that the chains of tradition and habit can be broken. All around me I see people going through the motions of making "decisions" and "choices" in life without realizing why. It's time for "our" society to have frank discussions about relationships, family, children, responsibility, etc.

 

I hope everyone involved can find peace with this situation.


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#10 BlackPeter17

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 06:14 PM

First of all my friend, I want you to know I respect you for the IMO exceptional amount of effort you have shown to try to make this work, and the respect you have given  when faced with such am unfair and unreasonable situation.

You deserve to be an equal part of your childrens upbringing, and have done as much to be so as you can, but it seems you are up against an unfair and unreasonable pile of expectations placed upon you.. I respect your beliefs, but I am sorry to say you are the one who is being abused in this relationship. You have my support and caring,  :hug:

 

I am trying to leave religion out of my response. I know you well enough that I believe you will be true to your faith, as it is believed by you. What I see missing in your description of your situation, is where you are treated with love, and respect in return. This is 2016, and living in this world requires us to adapt. Compromise is a necessity in any successful relationship, or it is doomed to fail.

 

I do not see any of your expectations as unreasonable or unfair. I am sorry, but I agree you need to find a lawer who will help you fight for your rights to be an equal part of your own childrens upbringing. You cannot stop them from hearing your wifes interpretation of what she believes, but you can teach them to make their own choices and be a man they can respect, and know that you love them.

 

You deserve a marriage that is based on love, and not treated like a business contract. I hope you can find this, but it does not sound like it will be with this woman.

 

I hope none of this offends you, as I would not intend it that way. I do not see that you have done anything wrong. I hope for only the best outcome for you my friend.

 

nope, and I appreciate all the respect everybody, but none of anybodies responses offend me.  

 

 

I was deep into thought today, because I continue to reflect on my own actions.  indeed I do respond to her disrespectfully, and have abused her trust.  I think if I had to some up all my mistakes made thus far, I think they were made out of fear and insecurity.  she is a very attractive women, and she is very intelligent, and she has a great profession.  she is a great mother, and a great friend to others.  its myself, and her values/beliefs where she unfortunately falls short.  I think that nobody is perfect, and I do not want to dismiss my own fault.  but I believe my faults (verbal abuse, disrespect, controlling, and viewing pornography) are all symptoms of my insecurities.  I want to make all my wifes dreams come true, I want to be her everything.  I tried so hard to make things work with her staying home after the first born, and again with the second born.  through this second addition I worked so hard that I hit two of her desires at once I picked up two extra jobs to rally up enough money to move our family and all our belongings across the country to the west coast which has always been a dream of ours.  she had been on me for 7 years to move from where we were renting but the house belonged to my family and I did not want to leave them high and dry.  none the less I funded the entire move, and picked up all expenses along the way as well as supported the family financially half way into december (so march-dec leave of work unpaid).  along the way sure it was rocky, and into august I was begging her to go back to work and we fought in september, october, in novemeber until she finally got a "as needed job" where she can pick up what ever she wants 4-40 hours a week likely even more with bonuses.  however she has choosen to work 4-8 hrs a week and taking some weeks off completely.  anyway my point is that I didn't ignore her needs even though I felt like I was just being used.  even though I felt like giving up each month this past fall I kept going, I told her "Im sorry for continuing to fight about this but try and understand that I am doing this against my will and it is very difficult".  her failing to accept the reality of our situation of dual earners as anything other then ideal has magnified my insecurities.  I know she desires it, I desire to be a stay at home dad (and when I say that its not without knowing what it takes to run a family, because I do and could do so on my own without intervention if she let me).  so I tried anyway to giver her what she wants, and as I crash and burn instead of lifting me up, helping me out, she chooses to use her poor interpretation of what being a christian means against me taking stabs at me by calling me lazy, by telling me that Im not a man, and that I don't know what being a man is, or being a father is, and how I am unable to provide for my family.  it really crushes my sole. ontop of that she refuses to find satisfaction when we make love, and refuses to communicate what I can do to satisfy her which makes me feel like I am unable to please her (more insecurities).  all these insecurities really way in on me, and I respond out of fear in negativity to out problems demonstrating inabilities to control my self by disrespecting her and yelling infront of the kids.  these insecurities are why I continue to view pornography even though I know it promotes violence against females.  I am missing the satisfaction of pleasing my partner in my life so I fill it with the void of pornography because when thats over everybody is pleased (except the women in the movies fake it). but even though its faked, even though the computer is fake and not real life sex I still get the affirmation associated with participation in female climaxes, or women serving men sexually.  I'm not a porn addict, I know that porn should not be part of a committed relationship unless both agree - yet even then I still think porn is horrible for what it does to our culture.  I want to respect females, and not view them as sex objects.  but I need to be affirmed that I am capable of satisfying my wifes desires and the ones I can't she accepts my short comings as part of what makes our relationship beautiful.  



#11 BlackPeter17

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 06:15 PM

That sounds like a very rough situation you've gotten yourself into and I truly empathize with it.

 

I don't have much advice as to how to deal with it but it is my hope that your children are able to hear from you how and why you did get into this situation. It will only be until those of us who've made mistakes in our choices are able to make them explicit to those who follow that the chains of tradition and habit can be broken. All around me I see people going through the motions of making "decisions" and "choices" in life without realizing why. It's time for "our" society to have frank discussions about relationships, family, children, responsibility, etc.

 

I hope everyone involved can find peace with this situation.

agreed, thanks buddy!



#12 happy4nic8r

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 06:43 PM

wherever you go and whatever you do, you will at least be there, a human doing, rather than a human just being.

 

your kids will be fine, they will learn much from this, and will be what they are going to be, you have little or no effect on that, despite your thoughts on the matter or what ever book you are reading that gives you hope.

 

read the Screwtape letters, by CS Lewis.

 

I could go on forever on this subject but I find it's just repetative and gets into things we can't possibly know or discuss.

 

I feel for you, as a very experienced traveler in the world of broken dreams, I find that playing music can put me in touch with a higher power that makes me feel like I belong here, or there. Other than that, I don't have much, you will live through this and will make decisions or have them made for you. 

 

Forget lawyers in this case, the smart and wise just let the woman have her way, the kids will see why even if she doesn't.


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#13 BlackPeter17

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 07:39 PM

ok I will add that one too the list!  thanks for the support happy!



#14 BlackPeter17

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 12:02 AM

I feel it is my duty as a christian to point out through text the correct and incorrect behaviors regarding christianity practice.  I feel I owe it to my community here as I know we gather as one, and here I eat from the table with all walks of life and different chosen paths.  I find it dis-heartening to find anybody especially a christian let alone my wife marginalizing anybody due to their gender or sexuality in the name of the lord.  however the including of all genders, and all sexualities, and all race or culture is through romans chapter 14 stating anybody who accepts christ as lord stands before god alone.  to god alone he is accountable for his life.  what a christian eats or doesn't eat is not to be judged by another christian as right or wrong for that given person as they do not know the will of god and it is automatic to assume that if a person claims christ as lord then god will be guiding them through life and furthering their journey in their OWN spirituality.  Therefor who you choose to lay with at night may be the business of no one and to turn a fellow from the lord based on interpretations and particular translations in efforts to prove their behaviors or choices clean or unclean, you are causing them great embarrassment, grave suffering and pain, the very bondage of the satan.  I well as many practicing christians will for inclusion of all, because I see what our society has done to us through marginalization of non-white hetrosexual males through the enforcement of capitalism, classism, and patriarchal bullshit.  It deeply saddens me to see an individual marginalized and turned away from god due to the embarrassment caused from the message of ill minded ignorant christians who attempt to live pure and abstain from what they deem unclean as a practice of observation of gods will but in actuality their actions to abstain from what is unclean is to gain "spiritual capital" so that they may extort control over others and act as a gatekeeper to the almighty.  please know all my family here that if you are a homosexual or a female, or a bisexual, or an asexual, or are intersexed, transgendered that god loves you, and wants you to be saved from your sin.  while to some christians, they may believe it beneficial to point out what they determine in your lives to be sin, it is not the will of god for them to judge, for they know not gods will.  if you accept god as 1, and jesus as your savior and redeemer of your sin then you are saved.  your conscience is what god gave you specifically to discern right from wrong and if god tells you its right you best do what god says.  and this extends also to any unbelievers as well. your walk in life as an unbeliever and your (possible) future as a believer may not look like my walk, and my walk may not look like my wives walk.  what causes me to stumble is only relevant to me as I am on my path alone as is you.  

 

please, please if you only regard 1 thing in this post, know that the message of exclusion by some christians, is not practice of all.  there are a lot of great feminist Christians out there who are not republican (hehehe fuck sara palin) and they have paved the way of future by pointing out the actual literal translations to not be gender specific, and through their justification of their participation in the practices of faith they are revealing the marginalzion of society through patriarchy and capitalism that has left women, non whites, and homosexuals subservient. things are going to change I promise. those assholes will still be talking shit, but fuck them.  unfortunately what includes you and I in romans 14 also includes them but in the end god will judge each person according to how they treat others, and anybody who turns somebody away from god is in fact acting against gods will.  thanks I love you all and am sincerely sorry that there are people out there like this, and also that I am married to one.  but I accept her immaturity through my faith in god that she will some day reflect on this and take it to her heart.  amen. 


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#15 Juthro

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 02:39 AM

Talk to a lawyer.


Your convictions and the law may be farther apart then you have imagined.

My best advice is for everyone's good, please talk to a lawyer.
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#16 BlackPeter17

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 10:35 AM

Talk to a lawyer.


Your convictions and the law may be farther apart then you have imagined.

My best advice is for everyone's good, please talk to a lawyer.

thanks juthro please expand on this



#17 BlackPeter17

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 04:57 PM

orlando, I bow my head in sorrow.  this brutal example from a human has nothing to due with his particular religion.  it is a hate crime, and is the result of a poor message from the homophobics of the world club.  and unfortunately christians, and isis carrying this in common apparently.  I am not sure what y'alls definition of worldly is, but mine includes the adoption of the worldly view to marginalize people based on gender and sexuality.  God commands the people present themselves differently from the world, that is so that one may not confuse a christian with say a muslim, or a member of isis.  no matter what faith you choose, group you identify with, or religion you choose to follow you must consider the ethical consequences of the message you put out to the world.  I pray for every person in the building that lost their life, and possibly missed an opportunity to walk with god due to poor interpretations of an inclusive message.  


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#18 BlackPeter17

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 09:53 AM

to any homosexual here who has felt the oppression for the church and turned away from god, please watch this video. It is from 2012, but there are more recent discussion and matthew vines just recently visited a church and spoke in portland so he may be visiting near you!

[Direct Link]


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#19 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 14 July 2016 - 08:04 PM

Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. Ephesians 5:33

Dire, my wife left me after 26 years. Luckily the kids are grown but that doesn't make it any easier. I feel the pain in your words, and wish I had advice.

I will say, as a once staunch Christian who has studied the Bible extensively that your wife is not living the verse I just posted. How can she throw selected verses at you, if she is not living them herself? No doubt you already have thought of that... I send love to you my brother.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 14 July 2016 - 08:06 PM.

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#20 Heirloom

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Posted 14 July 2016 - 09:01 PM

I am very sad when families break up. I will pray and send you love good vibes.


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