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Deficiency conundrum


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#1 Shadowlord

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 02:45 PM

Hello fellow Topiates.

Been having some trouble over the last year or longer with a recurring problem that I am at a loss to figure out or explain.
Looks like a Mag def to start but I always use some cal mag and it doesn't help.
Here is the very beginning of how it starts.

20161010_121549.jpg

20161010_121603.jpg

There will be plenty of other photos to show what I've been dealing with, but this is healthy plants just beginning to show the issue.
Took a long time to understand there were problems as I had a mite problem and lots of stuff going on at home a year or 2 ago and thought most of my struggles were due to that. But the bugs have been long gone and things have been much better IRL so the problems should be gone as well as they get more attention nowadays.

I usually use fox farms ocean forest or happy tree frog soil or a mx of both though the current plants shown are in a mix of regular potting soil with some coir as I have the same problems every grow and it can't be the soil.
Use soul synthetics grow until lately when I bought new grow nutes from Flora Nova to be sure that the nutes hadn't gotten old. Added eggshells for calcium and a little Epsom salts for cal mag in case the organic cal mag had gotten old. (Trying to do my best to eliminate all possibles)

Myc had noticed that earlier plants looked like the soil had become anaerobic, I repotted with extra perlite and it helped for a little while and then came back.

Test my pH and it is usually right in the perfect ranges, though I thought it got low for a bit and corrected the pH back up to 6.5 and same thing, helped for a while then stopped.

Can't see any bugs under magnification, not obvious bugs at root levels.

Will post up earlier pics from my many earlier threads that I came up with while trying to figure out what the heck I'm dealing with.
The plants will start to ail, I've managed to get a couple of harvests in but they definitely were suffering. This is still an improvement as whatever is going on has stopped the growth and killed plants. Had a source for new genes that kept me from having no more plants but after getting clones with bugs from him, don't have reliable sources anymore. Making solving this problem ever more critical.
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#2 Shadowlord

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 02:48 PM

20160607_070848.jpg

Prime example of when things have been progressing.
This is whether I add cal mag or not (have used a control to be sure)
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#3 wharfrat

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 11:05 PM

what type of nutes are you using?

 

http://hightimes.com...ves-dont-panic/


Edited by wharfrat, 10 October 2016 - 11:07 PM.

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#4 Shadowlord

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 11:20 AM

The plants shown only just got their first taste of nutes. General Hydroponics Flora Nova 7-4-10 and only one ml in a gallon mix as the current plants were just potted up clones.
Prior I had been using soul synthetics or Buddha grown by roots organics but I bought the new stuff just in case the other stuff had gotten old/bad. Only grow 6 plants at a time and don't use much nutes as the soils are usually pretty hot enough.
Mostly had to use bloom nutes as FFOF seems to run low on phosphorus but doesn't seem to need a lot of N thru veg.
Most current plants are in a mix of organic top soil mixed with coir (store bought, carpinito farms, as I didn't see the need to buy expensive dirt when I was having all these problems with that dirt)

This soil didn't do any better or worse than FFOF for my last 2 harvests.
Will be posting the rest of the pics for the current crop today and also some from earlier grows so that, will some help, I might figure out what is going on.

Been spending the last 2 days straining my eyes through loupes making sure I don't have broad or russet mites.
I've been trying to solve this problem for some time as it never goes away but is sometimes a slight drag and other times seems lethal.
Almost viral or fungal except I can't find any mycelium or other agents.
More pics to come, thanks for popping by Wharf!

#5 Direwolf13

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 01:08 PM

How often do you flush? And how long into flower is that plant above? Is that just an example or something current?
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#6 Shadowlord

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 03:52 PM

The pic of the one in flower has been down for a while now, was just an example of what the problem looks like in a more advanced state.
The current plants are the first 2 new babies in the start of the thread with the rest coming in now.

#7 Shadowlord

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 03:57 PM

20161011_120723.jpg

20161011_120741.jpg

2 shots of another baby (shishkaberry)

And here are a couple shots of some SK#1 that are descendants of earlier plants of mine and show the problem much more clearly. The newer growth is since the last repotting. Repotting seems to help but then the problem returns despite change of soils and nutes and even bulbs.

20161011_120801.jpg

20161011_120810.jpg

#8 Sade

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:24 PM

You need to repot. Also go easy on your nutes.

I don't care what anyone says but a PPM meter and PH is absolutely necessary.

What is the ppm of your water with nutes?

What is the ph of the runoff?

What light cycle and light do you use?

Can you tell me temp please?

Also FFOF is very hot for clones. You will not need to feed until 5th or 6th node.

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#9 fungi2bwith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:40 PM

looks like one of three deficiencies to me....the first 3 pics look like a lack of zinc, or manganese,  that last pic looks like lack of phosphorous.....

 

Could be some kind of nute lock out.....


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#10 Shadowlord

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 07:53 PM

You need to repot. Also go easy on your nutes.
I don't care what anyone says but a PPM meter and PH is absolutely necessary.
What is the ppm of your water with nutes?
What is the ph of the runoff?
What light cycle and light do you use?
Can you tell me temp please?
Also FFOF is very hot for clones. You will not need to feed until 5th or 6th node.
Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk


They are in 50% organic potting soil and 50% coir, it's not that hot and they've not been fed yet. Like 3wks old.

#11 Shadowlord

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 07:59 PM

looks like one of three deficiencies to me....the first 3 pics look like a lack of zinc, or manganese,  that last pic looks like lack of phosphorous.....
 
Could be some kind of nute lock out.....


And that's where I've been for the last year and a half. Have tried different soils, have amended, have flushed.
These plants are only 3wks old and would be a lot bigger if the starts weren't small sprigs to begin with ( I'll post pics of their very beginnings)

I know it's confusing as I'm showing pics of current stuff and referring to previous grows. This is the 5th or so thread I've started about this recurring issue.

I'm basically starting a grow log and documenting my problem as it occurs as I've tried the resolution to all the mentioned possibilities with mixed results.

Had a grow that was completely killed by the problem, got another 2 grows off the clones taken before the problems reasserted themselves and then acquired the genes I'm currently showing that is in new materials, yet beginning to show the same problems as with other grows.
Can not find any pests with 60X magnification and pH is 6 to 6.5 tops (using sensitive strips as I do not have a tds/ppm)

#12 Shadowlord

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 08:09 PM

The thing here is that I've done this all pretty much the same way for about 10 yrs now. For 8 of those years all was fine. Ups and downs like anyone else, get mites or have some issue come up but I've struggled for a couple years now in a way that is stumping me.
Some of the older folks here have seen what I've done in the past and have seen my multiple threads trying to isolate the problem.

Granted, I run a pretty ghetto setup, but why did it work for 8 of the last 10yrs? lol

Will post the rest of the current crop and wrangle them all together for a group shot in their home and will post more shots of my ramshackle med cabinet
:-)

Thanks to all posters.
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#13 Shadowlord

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 08:40 PM

20160918_144247.jpg

20160919_203628.jpg

20160919_203616.jpg

This is what the current crop started out at on Sept 19th, and they were potted up a week later when they recovered. We're in terrible shape when I received them and they had mites to boot.
Brought them back from there.... ( you can see why I won't be getting genes from this individual anymore)

So I don't think the soil can be too hot as I haven't fed anything other than water and they wouldn't have shot up the way they did if that was the problem.

Not arguing, just getting the whole story out so I can see if I can unpuzzle myself.
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#14 Shadowlord

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 12:42 PM

Just to be completely safe and to start at a baeeline, I flushed them out real well.
May boost them to the 400w lamp as they are under t5 fluoros atm.
Have been leaving the lights on almost 24hrs. Am going to put the timer on them and return to 18/6 or 20/4 like usual.
Tap water is 6 to 6.2 and is left out for over 24hrs to dechlorinate.

More photos to come, thanks to all following along and chiming in.
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#15 Essence

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 01:03 PM

looks like one of three deficiencies to me....the first 3 pics look like a lack of zinc, or manganese,  that last pic looks like lack of phosphorous.....

 

Could be some kind of nute lock out.....

Definitely a lock out for the adults. N and P are locked out due to a K toxicity. 

 

You need to repot. Also go easy on your nutes.

I don't care what anyone says but a PPM meter and PH is absolutely necessary.

What is the ppm of your water with nutes?

What is the ph of the runoff?

What light cycle and light do you use?

Can you tell me temp please?

Also FFOF is very hot for clones. You will not need to feed until 5th or 6th node.

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk

I'm also curious about the PPM of your water. I'm also somewhat suspect of your nutrients. Like Sade said, back off for sure. Something changed to cause the toxicity. Soil can vary also. A run off check would be good. The most important thing right now is let's get a look at those roots. If you can, slip one out and get a pic of the root ball. Get a real close look and check for any larvae. Fungus gnats are a pita this time of the year and it could really be that simple.

 

:meditate:  


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#16 Coopdog

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 01:07 PM

Well you stumped my theory in your last post. I would have been leaning towards tap water, but if you leave it sit for 24 hrs that shouldn't be the problem. From visual diagnosis all the basics have been covered. I'm stumped too. Sounds like you have tried damn near everything. Positive grow vibes flowing your way brother.


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#17 Shadowlord

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 01:46 PM

Well you stumped my theory in your last post. I would have been leaning towards tap water, but if you leave it sit for 24 hrs that shouldn't be the problem. From visual diagnosis all the basics have been covered. I'm stumped too. Sounds like you have tried damn near everything. Positive grow vibes flowing your way brother.


Thanks Coop. Yeah, this had been going for some time now and I've been wracking my brains. For the longest time it was mites that kept resurfacing and having to spray them down that I thought was causing all the troubles. That and I wasn't able to give them the attention I used to, but you remember what I used to be able to do.
A lot of these strains may be a bit more finicky but I feel that there is something that I am missing that will explain these hard to pin down lockout issues.

looks like one of three deficiencies to me....the first 3 pics look like a lack of zinc, or manganese,  that last pic looks like lack of phosphorous.....
 
Could be some kind of nute lock out.....

Definitely a lock out for the adults. N and P are locked out due to a K toxicity. 
 

You need to repot. Also go easy on your nutes.
I don't care what anyone says but a PPM meter and PH is absolutely necessary.
What is the ppm of your water with nutes?
What is the ph of the runoff?
What light cycle and light do you use?
Can you tell me temp please?
Also FFOF is very hot for clones. You will not need to feed until 5th or 6th node.
Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk

I'm also curious about the PPM of your water. I'm also somewhat suspect of your nutrients. Like Sade said, back off for sure. Something changed to cause the toxicity. Soil can vary also. A run off check would be good. The most important thing right now is let's get a look at those roots. If you can, slip one out and get a pic of the root ball. Get a real close look and check for any larvae. Fungus gnats are a pita this time of the year and it could really be that simple.
 
:meditate:

I see some FGs around but not an excessive amount. ( I remember when they would get back and they'd ruin our sleep by flying up our noses or some such lol )
I do notice that the roots are always stringy and not fluffy white like when in water culture or rooting cubes. Will take a pic of the largest one as it seems to be manifestin the problems the most atm and take a root pic. May even repot with new soil to stay ahead of the decline. It's almoat a race. If I can get them large enough and flowering, they make decent flowers as the problem isn't able to do too much damage. Other times, the problem manifests itself stronger and completely kills them dead if I don't take emergency cuts and restart.

The flowers the last 2 grows were very tasty but would have been phenomenal had they not had the deficiency/lockout dragging them down.

Haven't fed them at all yet, so there is no artificial cause for a lockout but am flushing to be sure and repotting the largest to try and stay ahead of things.
Sorry for repeating myself, trying to keep this thread straight and reply to all those trying to help me solve the puzzle.

Thanks again folks, I have started multiple threads on this from the many angles that it could possibly be. This is to be the first comprehensive thread on it and will update thru the entire grow. One way or the other, I plan to figure this out. My mind demands to know, lol
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#18 Sade

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 02:27 PM

You need to repot. Also go easy on your nutes.
I don't care what anyone says but a PPM meter and PH is absolutely necessary.
What is the ppm of your water with nutes?
What is the ph of the runoff?
What light cycle and light do you use?
Can you tell me temp please?
Also FFOF is very hot for clones. You will not need to feed until 5th or 6th node.
Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk

They are in 50% organic potting soil and 50% coir, it's not that hot and they've not been fed yet. Like 3wks old.
FFOF is definitely not organic. Not too dificult of a process to build your own super soil. Then you do not need to feed at all. Maybe a brewed kelp tea. Now doing a No-Till living organic soil is a while other story lol.

You are not telling us the ppm. You have nute locked your plant now I see from your pictures. I would feed only straight water for two weeks. Also WAIT UNTIL SOIL IS DRY! You are probably feeding with nutes every watering. That soil is NOT weather you say it or not.

I may suck at growing mushies but I like to eat I know my marijuana lol.


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#19 Essence

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 02:46 PM

Ha Ha! Mine too! This post is primarily why I signed on lol. I'm very confident you have K toxicity. Especially with a diminished root ball. The real question is why.  :bat: 

 

Looking forward to the pics!  :biggrin:


 



#20 Essence

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 02:48 PM

 

 

You need to repot. Also go easy on your nutes.
I don't care what anyone says but a PPM meter and PH is absolutely necessary.
What is the ppm of your water with nutes?
What is the ph of the runoff?
What light cycle and light do you use?
Can you tell me temp please?
Also FFOF is very hot for clones. You will not need to feed until 5th or 6th node.
Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk

They are in 50% organic potting soil and 50% coir, it's not that hot and they've not been fed yet. Like 3wks old.
FFOF is definitely not organic. Not too dificult of a process to build your own super soil. Then you do not need to feed at all. Maybe a brewed kelp tea. Now doing a No-Till living organic soil is a while other story lol.

You are not telling us the ppm. You have nute locked your plant now I see from your pictures. I would feed only straight water for two weeks. Also WAIT UNTIL SOIL IS DRY! You are probably feeding with nutes every watering. That soil is NOT weather you say it or not.

I may suck at growing mushies but I like to eat I know my marijuana lol.


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Super good point! What are your watering habits like? Do you pick up your pots and check before watering?


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