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Deficiency conundrum


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#21 Sade

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 02:52 PM

You need to repot. Also go easy on your nutes.
I don't care what anyone says but a PPM meter and PH is absolutely necessary.
What is the ppm of your water with nutes?
What is the ph of the runoff?
What light cycle and light do you use?
Can you tell me temp please?
Also FFOF is very hot for clones. You will not need to feed until 5th or 6th node.
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They are in 50% organic potting soil and 50% coir, it's not that hot and they've not been fed yet. Like 3wks old.
FFOF is definitely not organic. Not too dificult of a process to build your own super soil. Then you do not need to feed at all. Maybe a brewed kelp tea. Now doing a No-Till living organic soil is a while other story lol.

You are not telling us the ppm. You have nute locked your plant now I see from your pictures. I would feed only straight water for two weeks. Also WAIT UNTIL SOIL IS DRY! You are probably feeding with nutes every watering. That soil is NOT weather you say it or not.

I may suck at growing mushies but I like to eat I know my marijuana lol.


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Super good point! What are your watering habits like? Do you pick up your pots and check before watering?
You can do that method. I currently grow outside so they get pretty big and can't lift the bags. So I check the stocks. If they are stiff then good, if they are not that stiff and seat easily then that are hungry.

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#22 Shadowlord

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 02:56 PM

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Root pics of the largest and first pictured. Phantom Cookies.
Roots look better than I expected, considering the apparent warning signs on the leaves.

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Here's the other 4 new ones, couple Shishkaberry, another Phantom Cookie and one Chernobyl

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And the remaining SK#1 from earlier stock with another clone in a shot glass to try and keep her in the stable.
You can see how much worse affected. Been pruned back and repotting 2 times over the last couple months. Growth slows to standstill and will ultimately result in death but can't find any obvious culprits.

#23 Shadowlord

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 03:17 PM

You need to repot. Also go easy on your nutes.
I don't care what anyone says but a PPM meter and PH is absolutely necessary.
What is the ppm of your water with nutes?
What is the ph of the runoff?
What light cycle and light do you use?
Can you tell me temp please?
Also FFOF is very hot for clones. You will not need to feed until 5th or 6th node.
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They are in 50% organic potting soil and 50% coir, it's not that hot and they've not been fed yet. Like 3wks old.
FFOF is definitely not organic. Not too dificult of a process to build your own super soil. Then you do not need to feed at all. Maybe a brewed kelp tea. Now doing a No-Till living organic soil is a while other story lol.
You are not telling us the ppm. You have nute locked your plant now I see from your pictures. I would feed only straight water for two weeks. Also WAIT UNTIL SOIL IS DRY! You are probably feeding with nutes every watering. That soil is NOT weather you say it or not.
I may suck at growing mushies but I like to eat I know my marijuana lol.
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Read the posts. In the past I used FFOF, I am using just store bought organic soil as I have had the same problems across soils.
I have not fed these plants anything yet, only watered once as they were tiny clones and haven't needed much attention.

A lot of what you are referring to is information on previous materials and having the same problems.

I see you know your stuff, I don't grow anything that large but I have done this with lots of success over the last decade. Haven't fed my plants yet, only water. Soil medium is carpinito farms organic soil. Just some cheap soil at the store but I did as well, if not better than I had with FFOF the last couple grows. The same issues you see before you start to manifest whether I feed or not feed (in past grows) which is why I'm starting from scratch and showing what I have and what I've done.
I do not have a ppm/tds, the strips I have are 5.5 to 8.0 and I check water going in and coming out and have been getting 6.0 to 6.2

Having to refer to a problem I've been experiencing for over a year or more is difficult but I've come to a lot of these conclusions prior only to have them continue despite changing the suspect source of said problem.

Edited by Shadowlord, 12 October 2016 - 03:23 PM.

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#24 Essence

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 05:03 PM

I wouldn't want to pick those up either Sade. Some guy named Livingston may jump out saying you him five bucks lol. There may be Seattle homeless in there. Lions, Tigers, and Bears. Oh my!  :biggrin: Looking sweet!

 

They are some unhappy roots Shadowlord. Sorry to say.  :sad: Not so bad we can't fix it, but they are ticked off. I think Sade hit it with the watering habits. Things look really wet to me. Very much at capacity. I also noticed you said not giving them the love as usual. That's usually when we more seasoned growers get bit. I get bit a lot so I consider myself an expert on the topic lol. Life is so busy and sometimes we all neglect our girls.

 

I'm not sure if you are a pot picker upper or not Shadowlord, but if not get yourself used to it and practice discipline<<< I know  :tongue:  the hard part lol. Pick that baby up right now and get used to the feel. Fill another with dry soil and feel that. Keep it around if needed. Eventually the whole process becomes quick and instinctual. A quick tilt check and you are on your way. Some people go as far as weighing them on a scale which is interesting from research stand point, but a bit overkill for a closet style grower. I think they would be happier with a good dry period between watering's though. Let them go to the point where they almost wilt. Your fan leaves and tops will let you know. Give them a good soaking but not so much that the soil is at capacity. Allow a little room for that water to move around. Keep an eye out for those pesky gnats. They hatch when things go from soaked to dry. If you do start seeing them I have some organic tricks that will rid you of them quite well.  :biggrin:

 

Seriously, I think I'm telling you a lot of things you already know lol. So quit slacking dude!  :tongue:



#25 Shadowlord

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 08:22 PM

It looked wet because I had just flushed them as advised. How dry do you think the dirt is going to be a few hours later?
I only water when the pots are light and need watering. Not by time schedule.
Will continue to update.

Edited by Shadowlord, 12 October 2016 - 08:23 PM.

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#26 Sade

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 10:02 PM

attachicon.gif20160607_070848.jpg

Prime example of when things have been progressing.
This is whether I add cal mag or not (have used a control to be sure)

Found your problem. Sorry I wasn't reading the whole thread.

You have fungus gnat damage. When you pull the side of the container to see the roots. Do you see a lot of flies come out? The problem is the larvae they eat the roots.

Very easy remedie. Go but some mosquito dunks and break one into 1/4s. Then let your soil get none dry. They do not like that. They love alot of plants with soil bunched together and moist. Crumble 1/4 into a bucket of water. Then another 1/4 crumbled on top of soil. Then poor your bucket of water. Oh also flat traps are imperative. Put them as close to the soil as possible.

Hey man atleast you do not have spider mites. Lol.

Here is a picture of fungus gnat damage which looks exactly the same as yours.
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Edited by Sade, 12 October 2016 - 10:05 PM.

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#27 Shadowlord

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 11:00 AM

I do see the occasional fungus gnat in the room, though I've had them far worse and they didnt do all this much damage. Usually see the larvae when I flush if they are present in quantity.
Will treat for them nonetheless.

These current plants shot up when potted up but have since shown the troubles mentioned. I moved them too the bigger lamp after the flushing as they still take too long to drink the pots dry very fast under the fluoros, so they might be getting the equivalent of cold, wet feet.

All the plants perked up under the larger lamp, the biggest one, a Phantom Cookie does look nute burned and that is amazing as I never fed it and if the soil was that hot, you think it would have killed those little cuts, not have them respond so well before sickening.

Anyhow, will treat for the FGs and keep updating. I also put a larger fan and increased air flow. Have a tight, narrow closet for a veg room as the main closet is my flower room.
1bd apt ghetto growing at it's finest, lol.

Thanks for following along, been a while since my last grow log but it's coming back. I think the herb will be amazing again, as it's good now, once I'm able to keep them healthy and green all through.

Edited by Shadowlord, 13 October 2016 - 11:01 AM.


#28 Essence

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 02:09 PM

I missed a key statement as well.  :blush: Sorry. At least the basics are out of the way lol. 

 

I guess I should be more clear on the roots. The taps look real good. It's the lack of rhizo webbing that concerns me. Could very well be gnats. Even if you only see a few. The dunks are my number one choice for a cure though. Two weeks or less and they will be gone. Then you can skip the surface crumble and just add to water once a month. You can even make your own using a dunk as a master culture. 

 

It could also be some other unfriendly fungus or microbe. A nice Lacto Serum would likely straighten that right out. This is less likely than gnats, but can happen.

 

It could be cold feet like you said. Especially if they are on or near the floor.  


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#29 Shadowlord

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 04:15 PM

I'm starting to think cold feet and/or mildew affecting them. The little cuts sprouted up when first put into the soil, then started to sicken without being fed. Since they don't draw a lot of water at first, the medium stays damp longer than I would like.

Having bumped them up to the larger, not too mention warmer, lamp plus the addition of more air flow will make for a better environment.

Will post more updates and see if there is improvement.
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#30 MaiNiaK

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 02:28 AM

I'm new to this site so my opinion may not matter much, but here it goes.

The plants look ether over watered or to cold. I see you said they perked up after you put them under the bigger light (more heat). This is a good sign.
When watering, only give them the amount of water they will use in 2 days time. Smaller plants won't use as much water and you don't want them to sit in saturated conditions for days. With plants in small or medium containers the amount of water needed to dry in 2 days isn't enough to reach the bottom, which helps the roots stretch out. In this situation bottom feeding with a saucer under your plant helps.

Now for the dying off. The leaves appear to be dying from the tips back to the stem. (This is not nute burn) This is caused by the lack of nutrients. They are starving and pulling the stored food/energy from the larger fan leaves.

If your plant has never been fed, there is no chance it has nutrient lockout. So flushing won't help. It will only cause root rot and a better environment for the fungus gnats to thrive.

I hope this helps.

Here's a few pictures of my plants, so you can see I do have some experience.

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#31 Shadowlord

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 05:24 PM

I was thinking to give them their first small taste of nutes when folks said too hot of soil, didn't think so but I asked for help and didn't want to be obstinate.

Will post more pics and will lightly feed when pots go light again.

#32 Direwolf13

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 10:33 AM

Sending positive vibes your way shadow, I'm reading a lot of interesting posts, and now I'm leaning towards overwatering, it doesn't look like PM to me, although I haven't been growing that long or maybe I missed the pick. The soil tops looked dry so in the beginning I didn't suggest over watering I jumped straight for the PH. Your PH is spot on so if your run off is similar PH and nute lock should NOT be a problem. If you had an infestation over there for subsequent grows you would know, fugal gnats breed and you'd seem them, throw some sticky traps up, or dump so diatomaceous earth on the surface. However fungal thrive in damp conditions so if you were over watering, you'd likely be seeing some gnats I'd imagine. It took me a while to get watering down because my fan was drying out the top layer but the bottom was still saturated. I ended up cutting way back on watering and only watered ever 3 days approximately 2qts in a 15 gallon pot.

I just cut back on watering and the problem stopped. I had leaves that look just like yours, I have pictures too I could dig up. The only reason I am going towards watering again, is because your PH is good. The soil you are using should have plenty of nutes in there for right now, so the only other factors are ventilation and watering in my opinion. Once you get to the bottom of this problem you will have learned a great deal of patients, and a lot of trouble shooting experience. It's not easy at all and can be disappointing at times. I've only harvest once, but killed many on along the way, but I learned through the process.

A good IPM of lavender and some other essential oils can help fight mildew, and also utilizing a no till method with lots of microbes and natural flora will put up a good defense you just have to give it a chance. Sometimes we give the plants too much love, when all they needed was dirt some worms and a lil water.
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#33 Direwolf13

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 10:38 AM

Also put up some more pics when you can of the new gals, what are you watering them with? Syringe may not be a bad idea, it makes u more conscious of how much water your using.
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#34 Shadowlord

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 03:09 PM

Also put up some more pics when you can of the new gals, what are you watering them with? Syringe may not be a bad idea, it makes u more conscious of how much water your using.


New pics tomorrow, most likely.
I think we're closing in on the problem. Normally water or feed plants by saturating and then waiting for them to be dry again. May need to use less water and only dampen. If they're not able to dry up the soil quickly it leaves them with damp feet.
Will see how things go, the next week or two will show, with the changes made.
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#35 Direwolf13

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 07:00 PM

Also put up some more pics when you can of the new gals, what are you watering them with? Syringe may not be a bad idea, it makes u more conscious of how much water your using.

New pics tomorrow, most likely.
I think we're closing in on the problem. Normally water or feed plants by saturating and then waiting for them to be dry again. May need to use less water and only dampen. If they're not able to dry up the soil quickly it leaves them with damp feet.
Will see how things go, the next week or two will show, with the changes made.

Good if I can read into your post it seems you have clarity. It's tough some times when your in the midst of a shit storm. Everybody is too quick to treat the symptoms, stepping back and looking at the bigger picture you'll see nine times out of ten it's a simple problem like watering, PH, or something wrong with the water. Once you start adding this, and adding that you start messing with the composition of the soil and the interaction with the plant becomes more on the level of intervention, and it disrupts the plants natural defenses and life processes. It's tough to remember in times like these, especially looking at pics of people's bragging pics that this plant is capable of growing in the wild by itself, just like mushrooms do. That soil your using has plenty of nutes in it, no need to go adding this or adding that, if anything your best bet is to invest in benificial microbes, a bubbler, and make some compost tea to feed the microrhzzial fungi, maybe plant some clover or legumes in there to fix all that nitrogen that's altready in that soil to begin with.

What's the saying? Stay calm, smoke weed! Or LITFA (leave it the fuck alone) make sure you got good drainage in those pots, and let it dry out thoroughly between watering a. A good thing to do is watch the leaves, if they are praying in the morning you watering then appropriately.
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#36 Shadowlord

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 07:01 PM

Well....staying the course here. Have to remain vigilant as whatever is going on has taken healthy plants and killed them dead without me being able to find a smoking gun here. I may have gotten past it and just have an overeating issue here but something more serious has taken most or my stable a couple of times here, hence the thread at the first sign and the increased scritics and desire to find my error or solve the puzzle.
I know what I can do. Need to figure out what had changed.
Hoping I've turned a corner, time will tell.
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#37 Shadowlord

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 05:32 PM

Picture updates.
Here's a bunch of new pics. Still look a bit rough but there is new growth and a lot of what is bad looking is from old leaf damage rather than new.

Fed lightly with 1ml per gal of nutes and a finger nail sized bit of Epsom salts for mag.

Also turned the shower on them for a second so they look a little bedraggled.

Group pic then individual pics as I then trimmed off all the leaf damage to keep that from being a drain on the plants and to delineate new damage that might arise.

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Will post a group pic of them post snipping, they are in better shape than at first glance. Will see in the end I suppose.
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#38 Shadowlord

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 02:52 PM

Still struggling, new growth showing same signs...
Going to get new soil and repot thus afternoon.
Will take more pics and continue from there.

#39 Essence

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 05:39 PM

I'd like to get another look at those roots when you do.  :laugh: Sounds kind of weird but it's true. The roots tell all. Once I saw those the first time I threw toxicity out the window. Without those rhizo's she's starving. Unless there is some sort of starter fert in the soil burning the rhizo right off. I thought you'd mentioned using two different kinds of soil though. So that kind of scratches that theory.

 

Either way, If you can, get a nice worm compost based peat blend. No fancy starter ferts or mycorrhizae.  Keep it really simple for now. We want those roots to start looking for nutrients and the rhizo is where the majority of the work is done. If you have any Aloe Vera gel (pure) I would suggest adding a table spoon per gallon when you water. Beyond this I would expect 2-3 weeks to see serious results. 


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#40 Direwolf13

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 09:42 PM

There's way too many interventions being performed here. I'd say cool it, try to give the plants plenty of time to recover after repotting before doing anything. Imho you do not need to add any nutes, eps one salts, nothing to the water. Some of this recovery time should be spent with indirect light for allowing the plant to restart its natural cycles. Even a good soaking/flush may take a day or two for recovery.

The plants don't/didn't need nutes or additives they need time to heal and settle into the soil. If your repotting which you should seriously think about first please choose organic seed starter soil and do not add anything to it but rocks for drainage. Try giving it regular water for a week or two and let the plant grow some new leaves!
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