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Madam President?


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#41 Sidestreet

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 04:04 PM

Ha!  During the primaries that pic had Bernie in the middle.


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#42 Skywatcher

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 04:42 PM

Regardless of whatever "logic" preceded the formation of the electoral voting system over 200 years ago, it is completely obsolete now. There is not one single reason that we need this archaic system in this age. 

 

One person = one vote, and that should be the end of it. I have signed the current petition to eliminate the electoral representation, which is close to attaining the amount of signatures needed,  and hope to never again see a candidate win by actual votes, and loose because of the electoral representation.

 

By the way, there is no law that demands they vote either way, there is a fine if they go against the agreed upon state candidate.

 

If it was up to me, party endorsement of one candidate only would also go the wayside. More choices would not eliminate a winner, but it would assure a better selection of candidates. It's not however up to me.


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#43 Sidestreet

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 06:09 PM

I just had a bit of a heated conversation with someone about the electoral college thing and I am still leaning toward abolition but I can see the arguments in favor, too.

 

I think the strongest argument in its favor is that the candidates would completely ignore vast areas of the country in order to campaign in the heavily populated areas.  Now this is  conjecture and I don't think it's necessarily true.  But it's a good argument.

 

On the other hand, it's only conjecture and a candidate would still have much to gain by playing to the needs of rural America.

 

And what about one person, one vote?  When I brought that up I was reminded that we don't live in a direct democracy.

 

Again, I still think the college is flawed, but I'm trying to see both sides.


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#44 Skywatcher

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 10:09 PM

I will apologise for the length of this, but the opinion and facts stated are relevant, and I find myself in agreement.

 

On ‘Faithless’ (But Democratically Faithful) Electors Let’s stand up and fight like citizens in a republic.
 11/11/2016 05:03 pm ET
3.8k

Lawrence Lessig Law professor and activist

 

Joi Ito writes: “So what about this?”

 

I apologize for the technical, law-geek reply but: Hell yes!

The Framers created the electoral college as a safety valve. They were not certain how the states would establish the process for selecting a president. Most assumed they’d have popular elections. But to avoid the chance that some insane passion would sweep the nation, and drive it to elect a nut, or a demagogue, they embedded an electoral college as a kind of circuit breaker. If the people go crazy, the college would be there to check it.

 

As (probably) Hamilton wrote in Federalist 68, “the sense of the people should operate in the choice of the [president]” — but that sense would operate through an intermediate body, actually several intermediate bodies that would meet separately in the states, cast their ballots, and then transmit the results to Congress. By requiring they all meet on the same day but in many different places, the Framers thought they could avoid coordination and “corruption.” But by vesting the ultimate decision in these bodies of electors, they intended, Hamilton tells us, that:

...the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. (Federalist 68)

Many have rightly criticized the college as anti-democratic. I am one of those critics. But so long as it is part of our Constitution, we should take it seriously. And all it was seriously meant to do was to give a set of elected representatives (the “electors”) a chance to second guess the outcome of a popular election. If the people went nuts, the electors could veto it.

 

But if the people don’t go nuts, there is no reason — or justification — for the electors to second guess them. The Framers did not limit the reasons the electors might invoke for voting however they vote. They are free to vote however they want, for whatever reason they want — recognizing, no doubt, that they will need to justify what they do to a public that might ask why. They were empowered to veto the democratic will — if the democratic will needs to be vetoed. But in a republic, they should only exercise that power when circumstances demand it.

 

In this election, the people have not gone crazy. The majority have cast their vote for Hillary Clinton. Like her or not, she is not a demagogue. She is not a tyrant. Indeed, she is the most qualified candidate for president in at least a generation. No elector could ever have had a good and sufficient reason to vote against her.

 

But because of the screwy way that electors are allocated, despite her winning the popular vote, she will lose the vote in the electoral college — if the electors, unthinkingly, simply followed the modern winner-take-all tradition for casting their votes (a rule not itself in the Constitution).

 

There is no reason — either morally or politically or constitutionally — that the electors need to create this crisis now. There is no reason they need to vote against the popular will. Each elector is free to vote his or her own conscience. In a republic — aka, a “representative democracy” — it would thus be completely justified for an elector to vote to assure that the will of the majority prevails in a presidential election.

 

tl;dr: Electors were meant to be circuit breakers, when democracy went nuts. Our democracy has not gone nuts. A majority voted for a perfectly sane and eminently qualified candidate for president. So too should the electors.

 

I get that many will respond — “hey, but that’s not our system.” Those “many” are just wrong. That is our system — electors can vote however they wish; and they should exercise their power consistent with democratic ideals.[1] It is at least the presumption of a representative democracy that the person who gets the most votes should win. That presumption should persuade electors to vote to assure a majoritarian outcome, unless there’s a good reason not to. Simply following a tradition that has defeated the democratic will at least 4 times in the past is not “a good reason.”

 

Nor is it a long term strategy for preserving our Constitution. And this is the point that too many are just missing. Electors in the college can interpret their duty to be consistent with the national democratic will. Or they can force a very uncomfortable question.

 

In theory, we could amend the Constitution to eliminate this anti-democratic flaw. But in theory, only. The practical reality is that such an amendment is just impossible. As Michael Klarman writes in his most recent book, The Framers’ Coup(2016):

[A]n amendment to alter [the electoral college] would be virtually impossible to enact — both because the even more drastically malapportioned US Senate would very likely never pass it and because the smaller states, which benefit from the malapportionment, would never ratify it.

Yes, our Constitution is great. Long live our “great Constitution.” But if the view of America’s political elite is that it must yet again be applied to defeat the democratic will — and, to add insult to injury, that this anti-democratic feature of our Constitution is effectively unamendable — then it’s time we remember what our Framers did, the last time America was confronted with an effectively unamendable constitution that defeated the democratic will: They simply walked away from it.

 

In 1786, when it was clear that the flawed and anti-democratic Articles of Confederation could not be amended, the Framers started a process to draft a new Constitution. When they completed that draft, they told Congress to send it to state conventions to be ratified. That draft stated that it would come into force if nine state conventions so decided. Nine months later, New Hampshire was the ninth state to ratify it, and the Constitution came alive.

 

Every step of that process was, under the Articles of Confederation, illegal. And yet, the Constitution that resulted became our Constitution. My colleague Mike Klarman calls that a “coup.” I call it precisely what it means to live in a republic, where “the people are sovereign.” We had declared our independence from Britain on the Jeffersonian theory that the people had an “unalienable right to alter or abolish” their constitution. In adopting our Constitution, we exercised that “unalienable right.”

 

If we are yet again trapped by an effectively unamendable and anti-democratic constitution, it is time to consider what we can do to move beyond it. In 2016, because of the way the electoral college is understood, the person with the most votes will likely not be president. Because of the way Congress permits the states to gerrymander congressional districts, the party with the most votes will not be the majority in the House. And because of the way the Framers crafted the Senate, the party with the most votes will not be the majority in that body either.

 

Only one of these three anti-democratic outcomes is actually compelled by our Constitution: the Senate. I, for one, would be happy to accept that one compromise.

But a constitution that denies the majority its will in every branch of government just does not create a constitutional democracy.

 

We can, bovinely, just accept that fact. I get it, we’re all busy.

Or we can, like citizens in a republic, stand up and fight.

I have no idea how we’d even press that question, given the monster that is the United States government. And I’ve long been a fan of the one clear path to amendment that the Framers seemed to leave us — an Article V convention.

 

But I’d much rather avoid this question by having electors behave in a way that’s consistent with a representative democracy. And then after that, by getting Congress to reform the insane system of gerrymandering and campaign finance that defeats it as a representative body too. (Citizen Equality Act anyone?)

Meanwhile, bravo to those fighting for democratic principles. It used to be not such a controversial idea.

***

[1] Like any question in constitutional law, there are those who disagree with this conclusion, and I concede, their position is not crazy. It is just not correct. Tons of sources tk.


Edited by Skywatcher, 12 November 2016 - 10:13 PM.

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#45 wildedibles

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 05:16 AM

So if I get that right it says "the one with the majority of votes dosnt get elllected"
So if everyone votted for Trump Cliton would have gotten in?
Maybe next time you should take that into account ;)

#46 pharmer

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 09:59 AM

So if everyone votted for Trump Cliton would   could    have gotten in?

 

The article makes clear that the Electors of the College can do what they damned well please IF they assume and agree in sufficient numbers that the Little People Voters lost their mind.

 

Now, in this presidential election and given the tantrums being thrown in the streets and on the various media it seems that this gambit could be in play.

 

(By any means necessary, including paying them)Get enough people to bitch about the outcome to justify the College to over ride or over turn the vote of the Little People Voters and you have a de-facto Coup supported by imprecise language in the Constitution.

 

Talk about your nightmare scenario!

 

It appears unanswered about what justifications would be required to vote against the "tradition" of the Electoral College, or even that the Electors are required to elect the Candidate the Constitution supposedly gives the Vote of Little People to, or what superior percentage of Votes of the Little People can be over ridden.  Given the wording of the article in the O.P.  they aren't even restricted to Trump or Clinton

 

BUT, dear Mycotopians, these words make me distrust every word this person writes in this article:

 

In this election, the people have not gone crazy. The majority have cast their vote for Hillary Clinton. Like her or not, she is not In this election, the people have not gone crazy. The majority have cast their vote for Hillary Clinton. Like her or not, she is not a demagogue. She is not a tyrant. Indeed, she is the most qualified candidate for president in at least a generation. No elector could ever have had a good and sufficient reason to vote against her.a demagogue. 

 

Love or hate Trump, Love or hate Clinton anyone who chooses to ignore or deny the decades of criminal activity of Hillary is delusional or complicit in the coverup. And the decades of crime are reason enough for both the Little People Voters and the Electors of the College to not put her in office. These are moral reasons if not backed by convictions in Court. I'd apply the same standard to Trump but there just doesn't appear to be the same evidence to do so. IF there is it's not known to the same glaring extent that Hillary's high crimes and misdemeanors have been. You want Hillary? Just admit you want Hlllary enough to put a known criminal in the White House. At least your part in the travesty will be innocent.

 

And, frankly, I'd recommend learning for ourselves by reading source documents much much more about about the process because something about this author stinks to high heaven. That is purely my opinion. I don't trust the author to be an honest broker of information.

 

But, just to pour a bucket of salt in the wound - "At this point, what does it matter?"

 

Pharmer note: dammit, apologies for the repeated text and other possible weirdnesses in the text. My machine and the editor software are not playing nicely lately


Edited by pharmer, 13 November 2016 - 10:34 AM.

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#47 Myc

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 10:30 AM

I'm bothered by a few things.

 

At face value, the electoral college does look to be an antiquated idea.

 

But my knowledge of TPTB, shows me that the organizers of this shit-ball are running a LONG CON. In other words, each generation in this shitty system does their part to chip away at the mortar which holds us together. The idea being not to forcibly usurp the rights of the people - but to get them to hand them over wholesale.  

The idea of diddling with the Constitution gives me the shivers. It's like going into [h-key local machine] - you can really fuck some stuff up if you make the wrong move. 

 

Now let's acknowledge a well-known fact.........

As products of the "education system" we are all - each of us - tragically under-informed.

TV Casualty said it best one time and I'll paraphrase here:

Before you go honking on the levers which control a mechanism, you should first consider the long-term implications of said action(s). 

 

The way these assholes "pad" an otherwise functional piece of legislation when it's in "bill" form, I would hate to see what they would try to pass as an Amendment. We're all just too short-sighted to be properly informed. 


Edited by Myc, 13 November 2016 - 10:31 AM.


#48 Zen_

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 11:04 AM

Ya'll have seen these, right?

 

https://www.rt.com/v...linton-sanders/

 

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#49 pharmer

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 11:14 AM

thank you for that    :)   in the future I'll be able to think much better of Bernie



#50 Skywatcher

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 11:47 AM

The way these assholes "pad" an otherwise functional piece of legislation when it's in "bill" form, I would hate to see what they would try to pass as an Amendment. We're all just too short-sighted to be properly informed. 

You will very soon get a front seat illustration as the human rights and hard earned progress of the LGBT communities is gone after with a vengence, as promised by the Pence selfproclaimed representative of the evangelical extreme, who advocate conversion therapy and will do all in any way possible to remove any equality from the books. Then you will see the rape of the next generations world go into full assault as this country becomes the hallmark of climate change denial, because the leaders don't care if they leave a burned up cinder as long as they get their profit first.

 

We have already seen how congress will behave with refusal to do what they were elected to do unless they get their little padding approved in what is essentially blackmail, under a progressive president. You will I guarantee be horrified at what will be ripped up and torn down as the most abhorrent examples of all that is not representative of the majority mind takes the reigns.

 

I personally could very realisticly lose all my rights to be treated equally (again), and become the target of the kind of hate that festers in the self sanctified halls, of the religious extremes who would destroy anything that does not adhear to their personal twisted opinion and spoonfed falsehoods they so blindly regurgitate back.

 

Clinton was no Angel, I agree. This administration however is already poised to start us back to 20 years ago. It's going to get worse. Those who feel these fears I express will not personally affect them, will soon discover there are no holds on democracy and everyone will get their chance to be demoted to "less than a equal".

 

I am sickened. I can not discuss this rationally as I am already hanging on by threads financially. My spirit is broken and I need to fix that first, so I will not be discussing this election or the results further.

 

I consider you all my friends and know your support. It is not the population that spends time here that I fear. It is the mindless sheep that behave as they are told.....................



#51 pharmer

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 12:47 PM

I consider you all my friends and know your support. It is not the population that spends time here that I fear. It is the mindless sheep that behave as they are told.....................

 

and there it is.

 

We have to hang together or we will all hang separately.

 

and that sort of represents my point in any reply I make on any political topic.

 

which is - the danger of putting your faith in that Federal demon is that they are some sick mother lovers. They exist, and thrive on setting you against me, Us against Them, Blue against Black, "good" against "bad". Going to them for a cure is like asking a doctor to inject you with baking soda to cure a toxified liver.

 

And I think that's why so many people are pleased with the outcome of the election. Not because that Orange Haired beat the Grey Haired but because those who voted against the status quo (not necessarily against the person) feel like they've won for a change. Not against the other Party (though we'd be lying to say so) but against the interconnected system of liars and persecutors who are keeping us ALL on a knife's edge between anger and riot (or revolution depending on your definitions).

 

THEY will be giving the appearance of contrition and concern for a few weeks, maybe less, but deep down where they don't let us see I'll bet big money that they are laughing their fat asses off. The type of divide that comes from this election is exactly what they need to do what they do which is

 

to take our liberties

 

to take our money

 

to take our choice

 

under the premise, promise, lie of giving them to someone else.

 

And that is why I'm hopeful that something good has come from this whole ugly display. That we have passed the tipping point where more people have lost faith in this crooked system than still have faith in it.

 

Only when that happens, and there is enough pain, oh yes I think there will be pain probably sooner than later, will people get busy about the business of making that Federal bordello of diablos go away and leave all of us alone.

 

Then we may be equals. Until then we're all just equally fucked


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#52 Myc

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 05:10 PM

I use my own life experience by which to imagine a model. Though some may argue otherwise, we - as a society - have been chipping away at that which seems to divide us all. Women vote, different races attend the same schools and co-mingle freely........ While I know it's not ideal, it is progress. It is more than what we showed ourselves we could do during the dark ages. Yes, there are arguments pro and con in regards to every element presented thus far. But overall, in general, we are evolving. 

 

I admit that I am impatient in the extreme. I share some of the concerns but we must fix in our minds what we actually want. This fixation will help us to move toward a goal - not a destination - a journey with a purpose. Fearing what we don't want simply feeds the bogeyman which is the Us/Them state. 

 

Although some people are open about their orientations and preferences, to me..........you're people. Me - behind another set of eyes, in a different suit of flesh, having experienced life from over there. I learned that here. People can overcome their prejudices. We can change.

 

What did I learn here to help me change my heart?

I read what you as a community had to say. Perhaps there's something to be learned in this example. This particular format basically strips us of anything but our "character" - our iconic display of what is in our hearts. I have no size or skin color, nor do I type with an accent of any kind. I'm often more careful and deliberate with what I say here than I am in real life. I am enabled to listen without prejudice of any kind because it's like listening to my own mind. Pure thought - no form. 

Reality follows the desire of the heart. We manifest - believe it - don't - it happens in spite of us all. I prefer to attempt to navigate rather than to just drift as flotsam.  Spread this thinking wherever you are. With every inevitable tear-down and bitch session.........end it by centering on some hopeful expectation. We, the people, are not sheep. We are honorable, caring and kind.

 

Remember, the world was once flat. Anyone who said otherwise was a dead man. 

We can change. 


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#53 Alder Logs

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Posted 13 November 2016 - 09:19 PM

In the face of the future, which is always unknown, there probably isn’t a whole lot to be gained by projecting scary outcomes. Here and now is always the reality. Looking at a screen, or hearing words transmitted from afar, how much can be assumed to be in the cue for our own destinies? Paying attention is fine and good, but to be ready for anything, good or ill, it’s best just to be present. Little is known while much is being believed. I know I don’t know shit about what’s coming down the pike. Has Trump shown himself to be all that predictable? I’m ready for whatever the universe tosses my way. It could be a universal awakening, or doomsday. WTF?

 

I don’t get out much, don’t have teevee, but I was at neighbor’s election party with 95% there to see Hillary answer their prayers. They found out that I wasn’t there for their candidate, even though I was not for Trump either. I think it bothered many of them that I could still be smiling after they called Ohio and Florida. I’m still smiling. I am not going to let a bunch of projections about future bugaboos bum my experience or make me run out into the streets. Hell, the Cascadia subduction quake could go off under our asses by inauguration day, and I would have been sitting around worrying over a government that has been corrupt all my life anyway.

 

Watching the trail where my feet are landing and owning only myself, I find peace in that.   Still, I’m ready to help if it’s needed.

 

There’s only so much that can be assumed, not known, but assumed, about what may develop as time passes. One needn’t dwell too much on things, as the farther out the probabilities lie, the shakier our guessing becomes. The wilder the variables become, the more the future scenarios weaken. We have intelligence to apply within a pretty narrow range of possibilities. All well and good. At some point, the investment in the unreal can diminish the connection to the real. There is only so much can be gotten out of entertaining any hypothetical, and the hypotheticals are in an infinite supply.

 

I saw so many people at that election party flipping their experiences into dread. The next day we start to hear of people acting out in fear of what they think they know, so caught in the unreality of their projections, none of which I would invest a cent in, if I could. By way of self inquiry, I have learned to look at my own thoughts and projections. Seeing what I know, and don’t know (and where the future is the issue, I surely don’t know), I might see where to invest my present. Staying as present as one is able to does not make one stupid, or any less able to respond. I ain’t going to toss out my 12 gauge because I don’t know what’s coming. Whatever is laid before me, I will deal with it as it comes up, using whatever is at hand, if I see a practicality in it.

 

Shit might happen. Might just as well not. I cannot, and probably will not, think of everything. I might be saying, “boy, I didn’t see that coming.” But right now, right here, I’m still doing fine.

 

There are two kinds of fear: acute and chronic. One’s natural and good. One’s crazy-making and unhealthy. One says, “Fuck, there's a bear in my house! Do I have time to act?” One says, “OMG, bears might be coming to get me. Oh no, oh no, what if they really are?”

 

Even if Trump appoints Sarah Palin to be Secretary of the Interior, that, I sure would not like. But what will it serve to sit here and sweat about what I can’t stop, or can do little about?

 

If Shitmageddon does come down, my physical situation is one that most prepper minded folks would love to be in.  I have my copy of Peterson’s Field Guide To Edible Wild Plants!  Could be many of us would be a bit stressed to loose electricity for an extended time. 

 

Whatever comes, I have come to the place in my old age where I will surely take it as I am able.  That's without the levels of concern I had in my younger years, when I was more the political and environmental activist, out to save the world... a world that was only of my projections. I have seen quite a lot come and go in my time, and always have gravitated to the counsel of the wise and some elders who happened along my way to here and now. I took a lot away from what they had seen in their times. I know that no one gets out of here alive, not as the body at any rate.

 

For me, the peace is worth more than any possible attainment. I will try not to let… Forget that, nothing will take that peace, not even the worst possible scenario! I would bottle and give away this shit if I could. It’s always there, but only for the discovery. What is this discovery? Seeing what is, and what is not. It turns out that neither what I think I am, nor what I think is happening, is really the truth. But this is my seeing. Everyone else has their seeing. Seeing is way better than believing.

 

I hope this all doesn’t come across in the wrong way, but that’s always the gamble, eh?

 

I do love this life, whatever it brings.

 

Namasté


Edited by Alder Logs, 13 November 2016 - 10:06 PM.

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#54 Alder Logs

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 02:29 PM

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