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WWII ships vanish from ocean floor


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#1 dead_diver

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Posted 16 November 2016 - 08:56 PM

This is stranga.

http://www.bbc.com/n...d-asia-37997640
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#2 catattack

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 07:59 AM

@deadDiver, I cut and paste it here

 

 

 

 

 

Mystery over Dutch WW2 shipwrecks vanished from Java Sea bed

  • 16 November 2016
  • From the section Asia
 

 

 

Three Dutch World War Two ships considered war graves have vanished from the bottom of the Java Sea, the Dutch defence ministry says.

All three were sunk by the Japanese during the Battle of the Java Sea in 1942, and their wrecks were discovered by divers in 2002.

 

A report in the Guardian says three British ships have disappeared as well.

 

The British government says it is "distressed" by the reports and is investigating.

 

A new expedition to mark next year's 75th anniversary of the battle found the wrecks missing.

 

The Guardian says it has seen 3D images, showing large holes in the seabed where HMS Exeter, HMS Encounter, the destroyer HMS Electra, as well as a US submarine, used to be.

 

Experts say salvaging the wrecks would have been a huge operation.

 

The Dutch defence ministry is to investigate the mysterious disappearance.

 

In a statement, it said that two of its ships had completely gone, with sonar images only showing imprints, while large parts of a third ship, a destroyer, were missing.

 

"The desecration of a war grave is a serious offence," the ministry said.

 

The UK's Ministry of Defence confirmed that it had contacted the Indonesian authorities.

 

An MOD spokesperson said, "Many lives were lost during this battle and we would expect that these sites are respected and left undisturbed without the express consent of the United Kingdom."

 

Deep sea salvage: How to recover lost treasures of the deep

   

Theo Doorman, 82, son of legendary Rear Admiral Karel Doorman, who led the battle, was on the expedition which hoped to film the wrecks two weeks ago.

He said he could not believe his eyes when the sonar images came in, showing only a groove where his father's ship had been.

"I was sad," he said.

"Not angry. That doesn't get you anywhere. But sad. For centuries is was a custom not to disturb sailors' graves. But it did happen here."

 Image copyright Netherlands Institute of Military History The Battle of the Java Sea

  • 27 February 1942
  • Allied action to stop Japanese Navy
  • Dutch, British, Australian, US forces ships involved
  • Five cruisers and nine destroyers involved, Led by Rear-Admiral Karel Doorman
  • Only two ships remained
  • Vanished ships are HNLMS De Ruyter, HNLMS Java, and HNLMS Kortenaer
  • Defeat led to the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia)

The seas around Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia are a graveyard for hundreds of ships and submarines sunk during the war.

Illegal salvaging of the wrecks for steel, aluminium and brass has become commonplace.

But the three missing wrecks were located 100km (60 miles) off the coast of Indonesia, at a depth of 70m. Salvage operators say it would not be easy to lift them.

"It is almost impossible to salvage this," Paul Koole of the salvage firm Mammoet told the Algemeen Dagblad. "It is far too deep."

Experts say the operation would have needed large cranes for long periods of time and would be unlikely to have gone unnoticed.

The Indonesian Navy, when contacted by the BBC, said they were unaware of the disappearance but said they would investigate.

"To say that the wreckage had gone suddenly, doesn't make sense," Navy spokesman Colonel Gig Sipasulta said. "It is underwater activities that can take months even years."

The Dutch authorities have also notified the other countries that formed part of the international expedition: the UK, Australia and the US.

_92478772_javaseabattle4641116.png

 

_92470542_2b2ef370-14de-42af-be43-ec4bb7


Edited by catattack, 17 November 2016 - 08:01 AM.

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#3 dead_diver

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 06:00 AM

Aliens need scrap metal?
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#4 Alder Logs

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 10:35 AM

Aliens need scrap metal?

 

I had the same thought.   There are numerous sightings of USOs (unidentified submerged objects).   But then again, any developing industrial nation and many industries want steel.   The USA and Russia probably both have submersibles large enough to pull such a trick off, and I can't imagine that if China hasn't yet, they would have been working on it for some time now.


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#5 catattack

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 10:42 AM

I'm pretty sure that China could pull it off too:  
 
 
 
 
  China's man-made islands in disputed waters raise worries
A Chinese vessel works on a building project in the Spratly Islands in 2014. (Philippine Department of Foreign Affairs)
Chinese dredging has created a new island nearly 2 miles long and several hundred yards wide
 

China is rapidly building five man-made islands from tiny reefs and shoals in the South China Sea, U.S. officials say, sparking concern that Beijing is growing more assertive in the disputed waters even as the United States boosts its own forces in the western Pacific.

Dredging around Fiery Cross Reef, a former outcropping in the Spratly Islands, over the last year has created a new island nearly 2 miles long and several hundred yards wide.

U.S. officials say it is large enough for China to build its first airstrip in the remote archipelago, one long enough for most of its combat and support aircraft. Satellite photos also reveal a small port under construction.

U.S. officials worry that the buildup indicates a Chinese push to establish de facto control over the resource-rich waters and islets also claimed by the Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan, Brunei and Vietnam.

 

Except for Brunei, those nations all maintain small airstrips or symbolic military outposts in the Spratlys, but the Chinese military dwarfs others in the region and could undermine the tense status quo. Confrontations have broken out over fishing, oil and gas drilling and military maneuvers in recent years.

 
 

India is the latest country to express alarm about Beijing's growing military clout, partly because the Chinese navy has sent nuclear submarines into the Indian Ocean, rattling New Delhi's defense community.

During a three-day visit to New Delhi that ended Tuesday, President Obama signed a joint statement with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi calling for "safeguarding maritime security and ensuring freedom of navigation and overflight throughout the region, especially in the South China Sea." They urged all parties "to avoid the threat or use of force."

 
The Johnson Reef is called the Mabini Reef by the Philippines and the Chigua by China. (Philippine Department of Foreign Affairs / Associated Press)

White House aides portrayed Obama's trip as a way to emphasize his attempt to focus more military and other resources on Asia and the western Pacific, a pivot intended in part to offset China's influence. The Pentagon has sent more warships and troops to the region and has forged closer military ties with several of China's neighbors.

A military-grade airstrip and dredged harbor on Fiery Cross Reef, which lies on the western edge of the Spratly archipelago, clearly would expand China's ability to operate in an area considered a potential tinderbox. Land reclamation is also underway at Johnson South Reef, Johnson North Reef, Cuarteron Reef and Gaven Reef.

"China appears to be expanding and upgrading military and civilian infrastructure — including radars, satellite communication equipment, antiaircraft and naval guns, helipads and docks — on some of the man-made islands," according to a report last month by the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, which was set up by Congress.

Beijing insists the reclamation projects are an internal matter taking place on Chinese territory, and recently said it needs a base in the South China Sea to support radar and intelligence gathering. It has rebuffed regional demands to submit to international arbitration to resolve the maritime and territorial disputes.

The White House has refused to take sides in the territorial disputes, calling for a halt in all provocative activities. But the Obama administration faces growing pressure from allies to push back any Chinese effort to establish a permanent offshore military presence in the contested area.

Pentagon officials and the State Department repeated those demands in the last week, urging China to halt the island-building projects.

"We call on China to clarify their reclamation intentions" and "to cease these large-scale reclamation activities, recognize how they are increasing regional tensions, and pursue diplomatic alternatives," said Lt. Col. Jeffrey Pool, a Pentagon spokesman.

"They're reclaiming land in shoals and rocks in sensitive areas whose sovereignty is contested," Assistant Secretary of State Daniel R. Russel said at a Jan. 21 news conference in Manila. "We think there is a powerful case to be made for the maximum exercise of restraint."

Evan P. Garcia, a senior Philippine diplomat, told reporters the island-building "is not helpful in terms of finding a way forward.... It's so frustrating."

In late 2013, China's Defense Ministry sparked deep unease when it warned that it would take "defensive emergency measures" against foreign aircraft that did not give notification before entering an air-defense identification zone that Beijing had declared off its coast.

In response, the Pentagon sent a pair of unarmed B-52s over the East China Sea to challenge the Chinese claim. The crisis was defused when China backed down and signaled it would not endanger the lives of pilots and passengers.

Pentagon officials were furious in August when a Chinese fighter jet did a barrel roll over a U.S. Navy P-8 Poseidon surveillance aircraft over the South China Sea, and the White House called the incident a deliberate provocation. In 2001, a Chinese fighter jet collided with a Navy EP-3 surveillance plane, forcing it to make an emergency landing on nearby Hainan island.

At the same time, the Chinese military still faces severe limitations. Most of its fighter aircraft lack the range to patrol over the Spratly Islands, which lie more than 600 miles from China's nearest air base and more than 400 miles from a Chinese airstrip in the Paracel Islands at the northern end of the sea, according to the report by the congressional commission.

Its navy similarly has a limited ability to operate in open waters for long periods because it lacks offshore bases for refueling and resupply, according to U.S. officials who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of discussing China's military. China launched its first aircraft carrier in 2012, but the ship is not expected to be capable of flight operations until 2016, at the earliest.

A senior Chinese military official said in November that Chinese leaders decided to expand a military presence in the South China Sea after participating in the multinational search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, which disappeared March 8 while flying from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing with 239 people aboard.

The pilots made their last voice contact over the South China Sea, although the search soon expanded to the vast reaches of the southern Indian Ocean. Debris from the missing jet still has not been found.

"There is a need for a base to support our radar system and intelligence-gathering activities," Jin Zhirui of the Chinese air force headquarters told reporters at the Xiangshan Forum, a Beijing national security conference, according to news reports.

The search "made us realize we lacked sufficient air force capabilities in the South China Sea," Jin said. "There is a need for a base of operations in the South China Sea for state security and to protect national interests."

China is unlikely to build a major military base in an area regularly hit by typhoons, said Jeffrey Engstrom, an Asia security expert at Rand Corp., a Santa Monica-based think tank. But, he said, the "man-made islands would be useful for establishing presence and limited power projection in the South China Sea."

Times staff writer Julie Makinen in Beijing contributed to this report.

 

 

Original here: http://www.latimes.c...0128-story.html


Edited by catattack, 18 November 2016 - 10:43 AM.

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#6 dead_diver

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 08:47 PM

The fact that the Indonesian Navy claims to know nothing about this happening on their door step speaks volumes. If any type of large salvage operation of these proportions was going on in their waters and they didn't know about it they would have to be about the worst navy ever.
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#7 Alder Logs

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 09:52 PM

It is hard to imagine an operation of this scale, done by way of anything approaching conventional means, would not be seen or heard using the kinds of equipment the good ol' US Navy would be handing down to our nominal allies.    I remember seeing an old US Navy yard oiler (a tiny fuel tanker for use inside a bay or port), as part of the navy of Taiwan in Kaohsiung Harbor with a crew of five or eight times the size it probably had when it was US.    My old sub went to the Italian navy.   With the military material backing we give to Indonesia, I have to believe they have some good listening gear.


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#8 Heirloom Spores

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 11:56 PM

Don't we have satellite surveillance of the whole world?


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#9 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 26 November 2016 - 10:10 PM

Sounds like captain Nemo may be more real than we thought...
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#10 Cue

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:26 AM

Aliens need scrap metal?

index.jpeg


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#11 Alder Logs

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 01:51 PM

But will they pay for a wall?


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#12 dead_diver

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 05:48 AM

I was kidding about the aliens. I'm sure the Indonesian navy is behind it. It would probably be easier to round up all the abandoned junk cars on the islands for scrap metal IMO.
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#13 dead_diver

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 05:51 AM

Don't we have satellite surveillance of the whole world?


Yes but there are not enough to watch the entire earth at once.
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#14 wildedibles

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 07:48 AM

Is this the same area they have issues with pirates? Ive seen large air bags lift some ships before didnt look that hard to do you would just have to get them down that far 70meters I think that was mentioned thats deep but it doesnt sound that deep.......I dont think that depth is divable could a submarine be used?

oh ya what kinda weapons on these ships I would think some of that be more apealing to some than just the scrap metal ya maybe its the aliens :) maybe they are recycling

Edited by wildedibles, 29 November 2016 - 07:50 AM.


#15 dead_diver

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 10:18 AM

It's not just the ship being lifted. They are full of silt and mud and buried into the sea floor. Maybe not impossible to do but not easy or cheap.
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#16 Alder Logs

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 11:11 AM

Would the Philadelphia Experiment work underwater?  Or, maybe like the towers, they were dustified.


Edited by Alder Logs, 29 November 2016 - 11:12 AM.

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#17 Juthro

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 11:55 AM

I agree with DD, on that I'm not seeing the financial benefit of doing this.

Underwater salvage is expensive, and time consuming. That, and the material(s) that they would be salvaging would have been in saltwater for well over 50 years, I cant imagine they are in premium condition...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think there were other easier/cheaper options for getting scrap metal.
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#18 wildedibles

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 01:09 PM

Thats why I ask about the weapons that were on the ships
if anytthing would be usable after being under salt water for 75 years
sometimes metal or even wood can be under the sea for a long time and still be solid until the air hits it then the desinagration would take place very fast ....then again some materials do desinagrate into the sea
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#19 Juthro

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 02:11 PM

I totally see where your coming from WildE, and I agree that something more then the price of scrap steel had to have been the incentive to pull together the amount of resources needed to pull this off.

And I would think that most, if not all, of the weapon systems on those ships would have been ruined by all that time in salt water, but that just adds to the intrigue. 'Cuz who knows for sure, 3/4 of a century later, what cargo they were really carrying on that fateful day.

I think this could be the backstory for a new Clive Cussler novel..... If its not, it should be :)

Edited by Juthro, 29 November 2016 - 02:12 PM.

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#20 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 12:00 AM

The Nemo reference was not all tongue in cheek, but there may be some group of beings, human or otherwise that did this because they have the technology to do so. Perhaps technologies we just don't know about.

Technology that makes salvaging hundreds of thousands of tons of steel, brass, copper, and who knows what else, easy.

In fact this is a certainty because that material disappeared.... there is no other conclusion really, and we cannot get any further details unless they disclose it.

And who knows? It may be a simple technology we just haven't thought of.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 30 November 2016 - 12:03 AM.

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