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Sex Link breeding


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#1 Hash_Man

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 12:51 PM


I Don't know how many of you are familiar with 'Sex Linking' in reference to breeding but I'd like to share the basis for those not versed,

I was first was exposed to the theory of sex link genes on OverGrow.com but later by a breeder during my time in Colorado. It is used in breeding, from show dogs to game Cocks, and yes also botany. The imfomation of Sex genes is said to be withheld by cannabis breeders but I don't nessasary believe that but there is not much info on it on the Internet...the info I am presenting is by memory and as it was told to me. It's not hard to understand and if anyone else with knowledge of it please share and/or correct where I might be mistaken but I pretty sure I'm accurate how how it was told.

It can be useful for identifying hidden hermaphrodite tendencies, but not in the way you might think, selection of of what they refer to as true male or true female but those terms are a bit elusive will cover that also latter.

The reason I'm posting is it completely directly related to the topic your discussing in Heirloom Spores thread where he speaks of feminized seed, I initially wanted to inject a thought about selection but got carried away.




Sex linking is not actually method but more a theory behind selection and is used to identify hidden traits that's unique to the sex of the given species one is working with, be it resesive or dominate, but primary associated to resesive genes as let me give an example i.e. colorful feathers are a male trait in the mallard duck so you can see there's no big secret there, lol..

The reason I'm posting is it completely directly related to the topic your discussing in terms of selection and we are dealing with manipulation of Sex genes.

Sex linking is not actually method but more a thought behind selection and is used to bring out desired traits that's unique to a female or male of the given species one is working with, be it resesive or dominate, but primary associated is resesive genes as let me give an example i.e. colorful feathers are a male trait in the mallard duck so you can see there's no big secret there, lol.
Embryos carry the option of being male or female but still have an innate gentic z predisposed sex, this is what one needs to find out, I believe it may be referred to as true male or female in the next post or two I'll post a graph determining male/female potential. I hope you all know that if you want more females from regular seed you sprout/grow them under ideal conditions this is important to 'sex linking'

Let me cut to the chase. .

Edited by Hash_Man, 29 November 2016 - 05:42 PM.

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#2 JanSteen

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 01:30 PM

Sex traits work in animals and plants, depending on activation and methylation of DNA strands by sex-related triggers. Mallard males have more testosterone, which triggers a cascade of cellular events, leading up to colored feathers. The females have evolved to have different colors (sexual amorphism/dimorphism if I remember correct) because those colors are better camouflage.
Sexual dimorphism in plants seems to be there, but it would take a truck load of money and material to properly analyse it. It would mean you'd need a stable genetic base (i.e. cuttings with exactly the same make up), and you'd need to run QPCR's on both males and females during conception all the way until flowering. This poses a problem: you can't have males and females from the same cutting/culture unless you know what triggers sexual expression.


I've been working out some recessive and dominant genes in cannabis, and I've noticed that none of them relates to sex.
- Purple color works both in males and females, and can be both recessive and dominant.
- Autoflower traits are recessive, they do not happen more often on either sex
- Flavor/smell traits are both recessive and dominant; if a male smells great, and the female doesn't, their offspring will be 50% great. If the female smells great and the male doesn't, it will still produce 50% great.
- Height, time to flowering and width are not related to sex, however, males have the tendency to be more leggy and tall than females, but I have found many, many exceptions to that statement.
- THC potential, are related to females, but that's only because they produce more and better flowers than males. The females are the only ones I can properly judge without going all chemical.

As for desired traits, I use both parents with those traits. Since I found out that most traits are inherited nearly at random. Sometimes that means I'll have to store pollen in the freezer for over 4 years before I can finally get my desired cross. Sometimes those genes skip a generation. Sometimes they don't. There's a good reason why people say that it takes 6-8 generations to create a stable hybrid.

I use far from ideal situations, since that's one of my selection criteria: plants need to perform well, even in harsh conditions. Never have I been able to link those conditions to anything sex related. What I did notice, was that breeders who have a high percentage of hermaphrodites in fem-seeds, tend to post just that information (ideal situation = more females) on their websites. Basically blaming the grower for causing hermaphroditism in plants, while it's actually their poor genetic make up and selection method that's the true cause.

When I send people seeds, I purposely advise them to mangle my plants and to give them the worst conditions the grower allows. If the outcome is still acceptable, that means I've done well. If not, that means I'll have to start over and work my way back up to something better. Most breeders think the other way around: their plants are awesome, if all criteria are met. If not, it's the grower that sucks, not the genetics.
But I personally believe that's not how the cannabis world should work.

When it comes to feminizing, I still believe that plants which don't have herm-tendencies (by either light, soil, or whatever stress factor) are the only plants one can use to chemically induce male flowers. It might have something to do with sex-linking, because the genetic tendency to go hermie must be related to something sex. But it's a game of chance and numbers, not something you can measure before hand. It shouldn't be something to manipulate by creating ideal conditions and then stressing them without testing for the going-hermie-caused-by-regular-stress-gene, because that would result in 90% hermie offspring (take that from me ;-))
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#3 Heirloom

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 10:23 PM

I enjoy seeing some discussion on cannabis. I believe that the genes for high THC or CBD levels are on the X chromosome.

Males have an XY chromosome and this is why they don't produce high amounts of THC. The most potent part of a male plant is the vegative covering of the male flower . With a magnifier a person can see trichomes on the male flower and the highest THC content on male flowers is 3%. The pollen has no THC.

Males can make potent female offspring if the X chromosome they pass has the right genes to make large amounts of CBG which is converted by an enzyme to produce THC . CBG is converted into THC by an enzyme made by alleles named BT/BT @ the B loci on the X chromosome.

Females that make CBD as the primary  have a different set of alleles  BD/BD at the B locus.

These genes are codominant , so crossing a high THC plant with a high CBD plant will result in all the plants having a genotype of BD/BT. When these plants are bred they will segregate into BD/BD-CBD producers
BD/BT CBD & THC and BT/BT which produce THC.

Some special plants can only be kept as clones because of recombination, mixing the genes.



I hope that makes sense sometimes I have trouble expressing my thoughts.
 


Edited by Heirloom Spores, 12 December 2016 - 10:29 PM.


#4 JanSteen

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 04:10 PM

The thing is, you need both the activated CBG gene, and the activated enzyme gene for high THC yields.
Mendel was right on a lot of things, but with the knowledge the field has now, we know that it's not always a game of genetics, but also a game of chance.

This year I found an autoflower from a generation aA (a = recessive AF, A=dominant daylength). This means both a's have been transferred from one parent. I'm not sure if high cbd and high thc are codominant, but then again, I haven't looked up any recent genetic studies about MJ. Codominance does not equal expression. At least, not in my book anymore. Which sucks, because I always like to be well informed about what the actual case is then, but I just don't know.

As for the chromosomes, I think it's safer to assume cannabis has a XXY and XXX (and maybe YXY) chromosome type. Since it would be difficult to get male pollen (created by the Y) from a true XX plant. That would mean the plant rewrites it's entire genome to something entirely new. If that's the case, a lot more errors would occur than case studies show: people make fine hermies from nearly any plant.
I even managed to hominize some seeds (100% male offspring from a hermie plant, offspring N=50) which means there would be transfer of multiple male chromosomes somehow. This translates in practice that I believe that there is more to it than just two chromosomes, but rather three or maybe more. That's not entirely uncommon in plants.

THC - to my knowledge - is locally produced in trichome glands by mitochondrial DNA messages, which would mean that only the females can pass them on, since males do not transfer mtDNA to their offspring in nearly every organism. The enzymes however, could be embedded in both male and female.

I have had males dripping, like having trichomes on both stems and leafs and their flowers. They did not produce very potent offspring, but the generation after that did. That could be because I've been selecting nice females though.

The advancements in cannabis have kind of slipped my mind. I haven't been paying attention to it for the past few years, and since the game is changing fast, I could be horribly outdated. Spending time on perfecting some autoflower strains is a good.. ehh. Damn, I forgot how to English. Let's just say I've been busy rewarding myself by creating new strains and forgot all about educating myself on the latest cannabis genetics. I'd like to discuss some more though.

And as with everything: I like to tackle problems in a practical sense. If your plants are not doing well, shoot me a message and we'll fix it together.

#5 Hash_Man

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 07:05 AM

That all being said, and I know I started this thread, genetics have always been intresting to me but when good breeders put out a good seed, or when I smoke or I catch word something I feel my friends would love, I source that werd. Basically leave the breeding to the experts cuz growing is an art in itself, I guess I'm a seed buyer. I liked SFV Kush not that Cali Connection puts out all great seed but was able to obtain or actually gifted a 50 pack of regular seed, That happen to be from a member here so good seed is found in the strangest places. I happened along some great CottonCandy in the hispanic area of Colorado, damn thing theres hundreds of marijana shops to buy weed from and some the best weed is on the streets, luckily being 1/2 Indonesian and the friendly person that I am, I was able to striked certain ties to obtain a clone of that strain although you can buy straight from Delicious seeds, it's not always the case i.e. 'Mazar' I liked what they call the #2 phenotype high thc good high and have those in my possession, from the same parents of what I smoked, though I'm sure some #1's will pop up but will select from there, but breeding? Nah

Edited by Hash_Man, 15 December 2016 - 12:49 PM.


#6 JanSteen

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 02:31 PM

I'm a little in over my head when it comes to breeding. It all started with some regular autoflowers, because the results just didn't satisfy me. Things went haywire after I started my studies as a biochemist.
As they say: if you want it done good, you need to do it yourself.
Now, 6 years and a bit later, I have some nice unpatented, homegrown genetics on my hands. It were the last few of the offspring I produced in 2012 or something.

I've hit the jackpot a few times in the genetic lottery when it comes to cannabis. I'm not much of a spreading the word kind of guy. I'm more like a Johnny Appleseed type, with a message.
Personally, I believe breeders and resellers are asking too much for a bunch of seeds. I know the amount of work that needs to be put into it, but then again, I know that people - especially pot smokers - come from all classes and layers of society. Making money off of pot.. Sure, if it's the final product. But not the seeds, please not the seeds.
That's where my personal mission came from: a good, stable and reliable regular strain of autoflowers that people can reproduce themselves. A strain for all the people. The guys who drive ferraris, but also the guys who can't afford potting soil. This strain needs to be able to grow on nothing and still yield something. This summer I'll get back some reports from other growers who will purposely treat their plants like crap for me.

A few years ago I called some breeders shyte on some forums, because what they did was 'crossing' but not selection (like disease resistance, vitality, size, etc). They just seemed to produce whatever the community asked for, with no regard to whatever makes a strain an all round performer. I purposely infect my parental plants, just to ramp up the resistance in the offspring. Plants that don't make it, or get ill, just don't make it. They're out of the selection process by default. But damn, how the community responded! They were outraged, pissed off and even putting out some threats. Which I think is pretty funny.

Next year, my guess is that I'll have enough seeds to seriously start spreading them across the globe. I'm thinking about doing something like the free spore ring, or whatever it's called.
People send me a few euros to pay for the stamps and letters, and they'll get some seeds. But not on this website, because that's forbidden. If it's not nice of me to talk about this, please moderators, delete that part for me.
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#7 Hash_Man

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 02:50 PM

The Spore Ring style of distributing sounds cool. Your on to something because there was an autoflower I liked but to grow them serously would be expensive seed wise. . I keep forgetting your in another country

Edited by Hash_Man, 15 December 2016 - 03:05 PM.


#8 Heirloom

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 03:57 PM

I am more of a seed buyer but buying seeds has become much more difficult in the last few years.



#9 Hash_Man

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 07:44 PM

I am more of a seed buyer but buying seeds has become much more difficult in the last few years.


Don't get wrong man, goodness knows I've bought lots of seeds.
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#10 Heirloom

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 04:18 PM

http://www.druglibra...p/iha/v6n1.html

"

Many of the lines were non-psychoactive. The results of the selections confirm the inheritance of cannabinoid content from the mother line.

Data show that inheritance of cannabinoid production may be by blending, polygenic and sex-linked."

I did post this in my grow log but I thought it might be useful here as it speaks about sex linked traits.




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