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A reintroduction and the method of "Laymix" or "laymixing"


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#1 fahtster

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 09:42 PM

So... hi! This nym is phishoil (which I still dig), but my original nym on here was Fahtster... well, actually it was fahtphish, but that was a long time ago. For those of you that know me, I never really left the community... I've been over at the shroomery. I haven't grown in 8 years (life just simply doesn't permit it) but I never lost the "boomer bug", so I just helped out here and there with the noobs and cake grows and the occasional bit of advice that I know. But I love the community in general... just couldn't let go of it.

But not growing for that long kind of throws you out of the loop because we're constantly coming up with new and updated treks and methods and if you can't practice them hands-on, then you can't really talk or teach about them as effectively as if you were experimenting yourself.

So basically all my contributions as far as grows goes, they're already said and done and there won't be more, BUT I still have ideas now and then and right before I had to stop growing I was working on things like late casing (which I know didn't go over well here, but I don't think it's a method to do in every situation... it worked well with my bulk prep method because I layered my tubs and I think the way the top fruiting surface works when layered, late casing is most beneficial; which would mean people trying it with regular mixed substrates probably wouldn't see the results I did) late casing is still used over at other websites, but usually in instances where a person doesn't normally use a casing, but lives in a dry climate, so they find it useful to help stave off evaporation from the fruiting surface..

So growing on the idea of late casing, the next natural step in my mind would be to get rid the step of casing altogether, late or otherwise... but casings are beneficial, so the problem of keeping the benefits, but getting rid of the added step is what I wanted to solve.

I believe that the layered top fruiting surface is the best way to get even, full, and faster pin sets compared to a mixed tub that is left to colonize, then cased as most people have come to do.... and here's why I came to that conclusion...

Most people find that mixing their substrates and spawn colonies faster (which is probably true--someone actually did a gif of calculated simulations and the mixed "tub" colonized faster) but the problem for me is that you lose the control you had when you layered a tub..

I'll probably over explain the idea throughput this post, but bear with me, please.
if you want to reference my bulk write-up, it's here:

https://mycotopia.ne...akes +bulk +tub.

That top layer of substrate over that grain layer gives a lot more control over your fruiting surface... Although there are some things that I would like to update in that write-up like, I'd pasteurize in smaller amounts instead of huge oven bags to be more sure my bulk sub was pasteurized all the way through.. like gallon zip locks or RR style in quart jars. AND I'd laymix the tubs. Here's what laymixing is:

ATTN: Again..There may be a lot of duplicate info below that I already stated above. Sorry about that I did a lot of copy and pasting. At the end there will be some pics of some people's examples of tubs that they did laymixing with (permissions have been gotten on most except frankhorrigan, but he's been mia and I don't think he'd mind since he did the tub specifically for testing out my theories of laymixing.)

EDIT: Nov. 2016

THE METHOD OF "LAYMIX" As the name suggests, this is using both mixing and layering of the substrate and spawn methods while creating the substrate block--see below for directions and rough graph

Laymixed tub by Eatyualive
IMG_0345.JPG


A lot of people say that mixing of the substrate is better for faster colonization... But I feel that you lose the ability to manipulate the fruiting surface with evenness in pinning and on a lesser note, pin sets. Mixing the majority of the tub, but leaving two quarts worth of spawn And 3/4 inches of bulk material--preferably, coir (CVPG) aside for making the fruiting surface (just like described below in the original directions). So like this:

Top
( .......3/4inches of Just cvpg......)
( two quarts worth of rye spawn )
( ...... Mixed.....bulk substrate.... )
( ....with 4 quarts....of.................)
(____________spawn_______ )
Bottom

Basically the bottom part of the substrate is mixed and then there's a top layer of two quarts of grain then 3/4 of sub on top of that. Well, actually no matter what bulk sub you use in the mixed portion, I'd still use coir/verm/small amount of peat/gypsum for the top sub layer; the coir promotes heavy knotting and pin formation and the peat is to slightly lighten the mix so that it acts as built-in casing.

I feel this better represents where I would have ended up with my substrate block design had I had the opportunity. You get the fastness of mixed substrate colonization without losing the control of fruiting surface manipulation by concentrating high nutrients near the surface in an even layer, thereby bypassing any unevenness left at said surface by simply mixing the entire tub and fruiting it like that. I believe that by placing an even layer of bulk sub over the spawn layer helps promote vertical myc through the bulk substrate layer much like a built-in casing layer. This is not a frosting layer; it's actually the exact opposite of a frosting layer as the exposed grain layer is completely cover by the top substrate layer.

Here's a copy and paste from a PM with sidestreet (it's just me explaining the process further--not releasing any of his words etc.)

QUOTE:

The biggest benefit to putting that top layer in is that is negates any fluxuation that one may have done during mixing. You can mix and mix til your hands fall off, but you're still going to get spots that colonize faster than other spots either due to the density of your substrate in certain areas or the clumping of spawn in certain areas, etc. And being how full colonization is a huge pinning trigger, those areas are going to fruit sooner, leaving you with a staggered flush. But if you layer a couple quarts of spawn over the mixed sub block underneath, you can literally place each kernel of spawn if you wanted to (that'd be ridiculous, but you could) in an even layer... Then you can very evenly place a 3/4" (you can play with this amount like eatualive did--he went way under that and got smaller fruits, even though I warned him that 3/4" is best) of the coir/verm/gypsum/peat(small amount of peat) over that. That's your fruiting surface. That's what you want total control over. And the more even the layer, the more even the flush. Obviously, this is going to work best with a clone or isolate that acts the same throughout the tub... MS would still benefit of course, but the outcome is, well, MS.. so it can vary even with laymixing.

We all know that if you fruit straight grain, it's going to pin poorly, right? if you case grain, you'll get better results... this leaves me to believe that most pinning happens away from the high nutrient source; something with low nutes like coir/verm/peatw/gypsum. So having that even, flat layer of grain 3/4" under that c/v/p/g layer allows the myc to grow vertically away from the grain.. this, along with the coir (which promotes heavy knotting and pinning) will give the highest amount of pin sets.

That layer of grain is also a source of high nutes for fruits to pull from and the myc doesn't have to waste a whole bunch of energy transporting nutes from other parts of the sub block (it does of course, but there's less need for it) as it's right underneath the fruits.. This leaves the bottom mixed portion of the sub block to mainly act as a water reservoir for the growing fruiting surface.

Now the reason I would add a bit of peat in that top layer is to slightly "thin" that layer out and makes that layer act as an internal natural casing. My whole thing with this method is to speed up the process and give better, more even pin sets. I want to get rid of casing all together. Now, my logic with this is that when the top layer of c/v/p/g is about 70% and up colonized, you can pretty much guarantee that the "mixed" portion of the tub below the fruiting surface is almost completely colonized (that's with an average spawn ratio used--obviously if use a lower amount of spawn, you should wait longer to initiate fruiting.) So, I'd wait till about 90-95% colonized and initiate fruiting. This will keep that top layer from getting matted and right about the time that the top is fully colonized, you'll see pinning... and lots of it. This way, you get rid of the extra step of casing and it's pinning almost immediately upon full colonization (because as you know, even though you initiate fruiting the myc still continues to colonize albeit slower--that's why you initiate at 90ish%--but that all depends on your strain variety too... there's a lot of factors, but this is a generalization for conveying this info)

END QUOTE

Here's some results of laymixing from some fine folks over at the shroomery and topia:

Eatyualive pics PF Amazon (only 1 quart was used for the top grain layer in these.. he used more eventually, but I'd recommend at least 2 if not 3 quarts for the top grain layer if your using a tub around 55-60 quarts)
IMG_0301.JPG IMG_0302.JPG IMG_0303.JPG IMG_0306.JPG IMG_0352.JPG IMG_0353.JPG IMG_0354.JPG IMG_0355.JPG IMG_0356.JPG IMG_0358.JPG

Eatyualive pics Thai lip yai (1 quart spawn top layer)
1st flush
IMG_0321.JPG IMG_0322.JPG IMG_0323.JPG IMG_0324.JPG
IMG_0325.JPG
2nd flush
IMG_0326.JPG

1st flush
IMG_0327.JPG IMG_0328.JPG
2nd flush
IMG_0329.JPG

1st flush
IMG_0330.JPG IMG_0331.JPG IMG_0332.JPG
2nd flush
IMG_0333.JPG

Full pics of that frankhorrigan tub
1st flush
IMG_0337.JPG IMG_0338.JPG IMG_0305.JPG IMG_0339.JPG
2nd flush
IMG_0342.JPG IMG_0343.JPG

Frankhorrigan did alright with it, he fruited the tub at only like 40%. I think that's why the weight on the tub could have been better I'd have waited til about 95% to fruit it, but he did end up with a sweet 2nd flush with some bigguns. Fruiting it early like that, I think caused the top section of grain and top sub layer to pin as an island substrate and if he would have waited to fruit at say 90%ish, you can pretty much guarantee that the bottom mixed portion and top layers are acting as a whole sub block, giving out bigger fruits than it did... I also think he harvested a little early... he could have gotten more out of the first flush.. the second was nice though.

There's a few others like, pastywhyte and blindingleaf that have used it, but I'll add them later, but for now I think this is a good place to end and get some conversation started with the method and if anyone is willing to give it a go.

Thanks for reading all that! Lol. I know it's a lot..l so I appreciate it. Any comments are always welcome.

Faht/phishoil

Edited by phishoil, 31 December 2016 - 03:32 AM.

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#2 back2dirt

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 11:23 PM

good to see you back faht


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#3 DocOct

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 01:02 AM

Im definitely gonna fool around with this idea and see what the results are side by side to a regular sub block


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#4 fahtster

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 03:10 PM

I'm working on transferring another method you may be interested in messing around with too... especially if you work with PE at all. It's a write-up done by Azur... its basically throwing your tubs into fruiting conditions and casing right at spawning... it's a great read and there's lots of pics of beautiful tubs and people's examples of the method in action. Now I'm not sure if you guys do any of this stuff already and if you do, don't think I'm posting them to patronize anyone... I just simply don't know what you guys know yet.

The method cuts like an average a 7-10 days off PE spawn to fruit times.. it's pretty amazing for that aspect alone.

I'm just sharing info. But it's gonna take a minute... I have to resize all the photos to get as many in one post as possible and under the 20mb limit. So it'll be a lil bit... and my gf is looking at me like I should spend some time with her and that's always a good idea to oblige. Lol

Faht

Edited by phishoil, 31 December 2016 - 03:12 PM.

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#5 MLBjammer

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 07:10 AM

Great to see you back around, Faht.  It brings back memories of the old days here at Topia, and it's good to know you are doing all right.  I learned a lot about the hobby from your write-ups, so thank you.  You will always be, to me, the greatest cake grower ever.

 

As far as this tek goes, what makes the top layer of this mix not a casing layer?


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#6 fahtster

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 09:48 AM

Nice, well... thanks for the kind words and I'm glad I could be of help. :).

As far as this method goes... sure, you could consider it a casing.. I guess the biggest difference is that you're using bulk sub material in that layer instead of something like a 50/50+ casing mix. So you actually want the myc to colonize the layer. I'm not sure if you guys consider coir a bulk sub over here or not (remember I've been away for long time and my memory is pretty shot.. so even if it was used as that when I was still around I don't remember.. I have a bunch of reading to do here), but a lot of people do in other parts of the community. So when I say coir/verm/gypsum/peat+ for that layer, I mean heavy on the coir, easy on the verm, gypsum (normal ratio amount), very easy on the peat, and then just enough lime to balance the ph of the peat. Basically a bulk substrate mix with addition of a small amount of peat and lime. And as if you were layering a tub--if that's how you prepare your tubs.

And actually, Eatyualive called his trials with this method "Casing as Substrate"... I just dubbed it "laymix" because it was easier to say and because this is simply the melding of two pretty traditional ways of making tubs--layering and mixing--it seemed appropriate.

This is by no means, a groundbreaking, earth shattering revelation... it's like if we're both looking at a cloud and I see an elephant, but you see a turtle playing checkers with a donkey haha.. in the end we're both still looking at the same cloud.

The thing that wanted to do as a grower (just personally) was to get to a point where I could get the perfect balance of sub thickness and preparation so that I could make one and done tubs... meaning, 1 flush and the sub block is pretty much spent. Also, the speed in which that happens, to be maxed out. Well, in order for the tub to produce enough fruits to achieve one flush wonders, pin sets have to be maxed out and even. First, this is done by isolation or cloning of course, but once that is all figured out, I think the construction of the sub block fruiting surface is important. Having that thick and even grain layer directly under the 3/4" even top bulk layer not only gives you a more even pin set, but also provides high nutrients to fruits directly above them.

Here's a small tray done by blingleaf:
IMG_0582.JPG
See how even the pin set is.

Speed is also a big part of the one and done idea... I think Eatyualive said he got a tub done in 13 days start to finish (from grain prep to picking first flush) when he was doing these trail runs... he also does a cornmeal LI that gets quarts done in 3 days.. I believe he got the idea from tvcasualty's slurry tek over here. A big part of speeding up the whole process is to reduce the amount steps/work and I think this definitely helps with that by eliminating a casing run. Other factors of course play a role in getting the one flush wonders.. for example, if you do find yourself with a huge pin sets, you'll probably want to bottom water the sub while it's fruiting (simply pour some water down the sides of the substrate between the liner and sub). If your tub doesn't have the water it needs to support the pin set, you'll get aborts, of course.

And really, this is just something that I've thought of to get the best of both worlds--the colonization speed mixing and the fruiting surface control of layering. So nothing really special here.. more food for thought and maybe something people will give a whirl... tweak it how you want to tweak it for your work methods... pastywhyte takes even a little further with the laymixing idea, but he hasn't published his finds/method yet, so I won't be saying much about that until he does, but you can definitely play with things like, the ratios of c/v/p/g in that top layer (can even get rid of the peat altogether), the thickness of the grain layer, etc.

So yeah, you can call it a casing if you want. Hahaha. A lil long winded, I know.. I'll work on that.

Faht

Edited by coorsmikey, 04 February 2017 - 04:42 PM.

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#7 GlitchInSpace

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 11:43 AM

interesting stuff fahtster and good to have you back.

when i mix my spawn with bulk substrate i let that consolidate before applying any casing. so it kind of has the same effect as far as having more control.
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#8 Hash_Man

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 01:11 PM

Thanks Fahts

Yea some of the last things I seen eatyualive working sharing was grain to substrate ratio and sub depth in relation to fruiting speed and yeild, I'd suspect using a slurry is paramount for success

Buy the way nice seeing you old timer

: )

Edited by Hash_Man, 01 January 2017 - 01:17 PM.

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#9 TVCasualty

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 02:47 PM

Trip out... Welcome back!

 

For a second there I read the title as a French TEK for making cakes (Le Mixing, lol). But anyway, it'll be nice to have some new threads to send the occasional members to who express a low opinion of cakes (as outdated, useless, or inferior). This one is already a rather compelling counter-argument to the cake-haters...


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#10 fahtster

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 03:33 PM

interesting stuff fahtster and good to have you back.
when i mix my spawn with bulk substrate i let that consolidate before applying any casing. so it kind of has the same effect as far as having more control.


Totally,, and if you use a high amount of spawn to bulk material, there's much less of a chance that one side of the surface is going to fruit before the other due to insufficient mixing of spawn + bulk and so on and there's nothing wrong with doing it that way either.. I guess where this and the waiting to consolidate and casing differ, is with speed alone. And really it's a horse a piece... you take two tubs with the exact same amounts of materials--water, bulk, spawn etc., and make one this way and any other number of ways and take them through all their flushes, you would end up with more or less the same output.

Trip out... Welcome back!
 
For a second there I read the title as a French TEK for making cakes (Le Mixing, lol). But anyway, it'll be nice to have some new threads to send the occasional members to who express a low opinion of cakes (as outdated, useless, or inferior). This one is already a rather compelling counter-argument to the cake-haters...


Hahaha.. oui oui!

Faht
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#11 GlitchInSpace

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 05:30 PM



interesting stuff fahtster and good to have you back.
when i mix my spawn with bulk substrate i let that consolidate before applying any casing. so it kind of has the same effect as far as having more control.

Totally,, and if you use a high amount of spawn to bulk material, there's much less of a chance that one side of the surface is going to fruit before the other due to insufficient mixing of spawn + bulk and so on and there's nothing wrong with doing it that way either.. I guess where this and the waiting to consolidate and casing differ, is with speed alone. And really it's a horse a piece... you take two tubs with the exact same amounts of materials--water, bulk, spawn etc., and make one this way and any other number of ways and take them through all their flushes, you would end up with more or less the same output.

Faht

i see what you mean about speed. i haven't grown cubes in awhile. for me exotics take about 2 weeks to pin on average. so there's usually a little wait for me.
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#12 MLBjammer

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 05:44 AM

Great explanations, Faht.  I didn't realize the layer-mix was intended as a one-flush bonanza, but it makes a lot more sense now.

 

As far as coir, there's an endless debate as to how nutritious it really is.  I grow with coir and grain (whole oats) all the time, and I am always happy with the results.  Some view it as a bulk ingredient, others as simply casing/rez-effect material.  Either way, it's good stuff!

 

And there's really no consensus on any method around here.  If it works and makes sense, it's all good.  As H3 always said, the proof is in the crops.

 

I didn't know you spoke French, lol!


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#13 fahtster

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 01:44 PM

Yep... I'm all about the "what works for you may not work for me" outlook. :)

Here's another couple of examples..

By Pastywhyte
IMG_0655.JPG

By anonymous, but assures me it's laymixed
IMG_0656.JPG

I would love to see some peeps over here give'r a whirly whirl. :)

Faht

PS and again, once Pastywhyte publishes his method/take on this, it's going to be a good one. So look forward to that. He always takes lots of beautiful pics.

Edited by fahtster, 02 January 2017 - 01:48 PM.


#14 CatsAndBats

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 01:48 PM

Yep... I'm all about the "what works for you may not work for me" outlook. :)

Here's another couple of examples..

By Pastywhyte
attachicon.gifIMG_0655.JPG

By anonymous, but assures me it's laymixed
attachicon.gifIMG_0656.JPG

I would love to see some peeps over here give'r a whirly whirl. :)

Faht

 

 

I can give it a go methinks, let me just re-read the thread in it's entirety. Welcome back faht!


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#15 fahtster

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 01:50 PM

Cool! And let me know if you have any questions.. I tend to over explain which can lead to confusion.

Faht
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#16 Nosferatu89

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 02:53 PM

Interesting Faht, those level canopies don't lie. I'll have to try this soon.


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#17 CatsAndBats

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:18 PM

 

Yep... I'm all about the "what works for you may not work for me" outlook. :)

Here's another couple of examples..

By Pastywhyte
attachicon.gifIMG_0655.JPG

By anonymous, but assures me it's laymixed
attachicon.gifIMG_0656.JPG

I would love to see some peeps over here give'r a whirly whirl. :)

Faht

 

 

I can give it a go methinks, let me just re-read the thread in it's entirety. Welcome back faht!

 

 

 

Cool! And let me know if you have any questions.. I tend to over explain which can lead to confusion.

Faht

 

 

Well I'm spawning and don't have a low nute material that's clean or pasteurized. Plus I'm trying to phase out vermiculite. I can do a layer though, and my 50:50 is way more like 30:70 or 40:60 so it'll be close. I'll mark it "laymix". :biggrin:


Edited by catattack, 21 January 2017 - 07:40 PM.

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#18 fahtster

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:42 PM

Awesome! Thanks for giving it a go! :popcorn:

Faht
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#19 CatsAndBats

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:47 PM

post-147940-0-12379400-1485045827.jpg

 

 

 

Proof! Yeah, so the only difference is my 'casing' layer has normal nutes. My hope is that since I'm pretty liberal with o2 and opening colonizing tubs occasionally, that my loose fitting lid and the availability of extra o2 will help nudge it along in lieu of low nutrition.

Attached Thumbnails

  • laxmix.jpg

Edited by catattack, 21 January 2017 - 07:47 PM.

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#20 fahtster

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 11:57 PM

Should work very similarly. I'm stoked to see your progress fosho.

Faht




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