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I just lost 4 PC's worth of BRF jars. That's 130 jars. :(


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#21 MLBjammer

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 05:12 AM

What kind of PC do you have?  Does it have a pressure gauge or just a knocker?


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#22 MrBiscuits

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 08:19 AM

I don't know if the method has become obsolete, but you could also try tyndallization...just to take one more part of the equation out. It's how I started this hobby/study and had great success until I could afford a PC.

 

Here's the process exceptionally laid out by BuckarooBanzai (anyone know if that guy still around?)  https://mycotopia.ne...ressure-cooker/

 

But. If you're dropping $300+ on a single run...would I be brash to assume that you could go All American? I know I, personally, can't wait to be able to justify the expense.

 

Sorry for the loss. I, too, have put all my eggs in one nest only to have them cuckooed.


Edited by MrBiscuits, 09 February 2017 - 08:22 AM.


#23 Newmusher

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 08:52 AM

I can attest to the usefulness of tyndallization, since it was the only way I could do it when I was growing a while ago. With a high success rate (and being near-obsessive about keeping everything clean the whole process, as well) I'd personally recommend it until you can figure out what's goin wonky with your PC.



#24 catattack

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 09:08 AM

cat_papercraft_01.jpg

 

 

Did somebody say tyndallization? Huge fan. @caphead, did you mention what your PC is?


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#25 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 11:22 AM

gallery_151786_3_670205.jpg

 

 

 

You didn't forget to add the DRY vermiculite layer on top of the BRF mix by any chance, did you? It doesn't appear so from the picture above, but it's kind of hard to tell for sure.

 

I've never had a BRF jar look like that before, even when badly contaminated. Also, it takes a while for a contaminant to grow out that much, and once any sign of contamination is seen you really should dump the suspect jar asap. And don't open them in your house unless you've re-PC'd them first otherwise that's how you inoculate the whole place with spores that will only make future success that much harder.

 

Anyway, if that dry verm layer is missing then it's almost certainly your problem.
 


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#26 Juthro

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 01:18 PM

I agree with TV, in that those jars look strange. Though I've not grown near the volume of some of my peers here, I have (unfortunately) seen my share of fuzzy jars. I don't think I've ever seen a dry verm layer contam quite like that.

But if your PC'd, and untouched (I like to call them control) jars contam, your having issues with your sterilization for sure. You need to get that figured out first, before your going to get any success.

Lay out your procedure for filling, and running your PC for us, if you don't mind. We might see something your missing.

Like Cat and MLB said, start with the brand or style of PC, and then walk us through how you run a batch of jars through it.
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#27 Juthro

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 06:52 PM

Out of courosity, where did the contams in the untouched jars first become visible. As in, did it start from the top, or somewhere down on the sides.

And please refresh my memory, what kind of lids are you using?
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#28 caphead

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 03:13 PM

Lay out your procedure for filling, and running your PC for us, if you don't mind. We might see something your missing.

@Jurthro: OK, here we go!  :smile:

 

 

 

What kind of PC do you have? Does it have a pressure gauge or just a knocker?

 

@MLBjammer:  I have two 'Presto 01781 23-Quart Pressure Canner and Cookers'

presto
The PCs have a pressure gauge and they seems to be a decent product.

 


You didn't forget to add the DRY vermiculite layer on top of the BRF mix by any chance, did you? It doesn't appear so from the picture above, but it's kind of hard to tell for sure.

@TVCasualty: Yes, that's a good point. However, the tops of jars were covered indeed with dry verm. I agree the picture looks weird...I had removed the dry verm to get a better picture to post. I wish I had made such a mistake. The problem would be so easily diagnosed!

 

 

 

Out of courosity, where did the contams in the untouched jars first become visible. As in, did it start from the top, or somewhere down on the sides.
And please refresh my memory, what kind of lids are you using?

 

@Juthro: 

Here's a picture of one of the jars. Of course there's a variety in how they all went bad, but this seems like a good representation:

IMG 20170210 120008
 
 
My general procedure:  
  • Get empty glass half pint jars and regular metal screwtop lids. 
  • Fill glass jars with BRF cake substrate; hand tighten, cover holes with waterproof tape.
  • Put in PCs for 90 minutes at 15psi. Start pretty late at night; wake up when PCs have cooled.
  • Retrieve glovebox, put everything in it; sanitize the hell out of it with bleach spray (mixed with proper proportions), wait 10 minutes for things to settle.
  • Stick hands into glovebox via the gloves, and get to work with supplier purchased (not homemade) syringes.
  • Take everything out, store it around 70 degrees F and wait to see how it went.

Nothing fancy going on here.

 

HOWEVER I must admit, I've been sloppy with opening the infected jars in my kitchen. I figured it couldn't be such a big problem that having opened jars in the house would seriously compromise future runs. I guessed that the PC would do enough damage to offset any stray microbes wandering around...

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#29 MrBiscuits

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 03:23 PM

Could it be the combination of the cultures in your house and a lack of gas exchange while PCing?
If I'm not mistaken, you want the contents of the jars to be able to expel air so that possible thermophilic contams don't remain.
Could the waterproof tape be too nonporous and lids too tight?
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#30 Juthro

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 03:31 PM

Now just so we are on the same page, that is one of the control jars, or one of the jars that you added solution to?

EDIT: Do you live at a high altitude by chance?

Edited by Juthro, 10 February 2017 - 03:32 PM.

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#31 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 03:47 PM

I usually get zero contaminants when PC'ing BRF jars at 15 psi for 60 minutes, and even that's probably overkill. I also quit using bleach a long time ago for anything except soaking contaminated jars after cleaning the substrate out since it's no fun to breathe the fumes and it's not actually necessary if basic cleanliness is maintained and proper sterile technique is used. For large-scale cleaning (floors, ceilings, etc.) I shifted to dry steam since it works far better than mopping with any liquid sanitizer (bleach, lysol) while also being non-irritating and non-hazardous.

 

IME, good technique and clean spores turned out to be much more important for success than the type or quantity of chemicals I used (even in the case of steam, which isn't really necessary for a PF TEK style grow).

 

 

Could it be the combination of the cultures in your house and a lack of gas exchange while PCing?
If I'm not mistaken, you want the contents of the jars to be able to expel air so that possible thermophilic contams don't remain.
Could the waterproof tape be too nonporous and lids too tight?

 

No; that steam is getting in the jars, and even if they were tightly sealed the temp would still rise enough to reach sterilization temp, though it might also create a vacuum upon cooling and come to think of it, that could be possible source of contamination since removing the tape to inoculate the jars would break the vacuum and draw in outside air forcefully enough to penetrate the verm layer.

 

 

 

 

So I guess that's my next question: Are the lids screwed on with the gasket side down (which would cause them to seal as they cooled like they're supposed to when canning)?

 

If so, try using them upside-down instead (gasket side up).


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#32 MLBjammer

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 07:04 AM

That's the same PC I have, Caphead, and I know it's a good one.

 

Yes, no tape is required for PF jars, just a double layer of foil.  And I have always gone for 30 minutes at 15 PSI when running cakes, and that has worked quite well for 15 years or so.

 

I think TV is onto something with the vacuum aspect maybe.  Anyway, we'll figure it out.



#33 catattack

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 07:29 AM

That's the same PC I have, Caphead, and I know it's a good one.

 

Yes, no tape is required for PF jars, just a double layer of foil.  And I have always gone for 30 minutes at 15 PSI when running cakes, and that has worked quite well for 15 years or so.

 

I think TV is onto something with the vacuum aspect maybe.  Anyway, we'll figure it out.

 

 

When I open small jars that don't have a gas exchange filter (my agar jars), I use lysol wipes or paper towels soaked in 91% alcohol, so that when the seal is broken any air that is forced in has to go through the towels/wipes as a kind of wet filter. My theory is airborne particles stick to the wipes and die.



#34 MLBjammer

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 11:12 AM

I think that would work with just wet paper towels, as the idea is to simply attract the competitors to the moist surface and away from your good stuff.

 

I used to use moist paper towels to humidify cakes way, way back when.  You'd be surprised how contam-resistant Bounty is!



#35 catattack

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 11:17 AM

I think that would work with just wet paper towels, as the idea is to simply attract the competitors to the moist surface and away from your good stuff.

 

I used to use moist paper towels to humidify cakes way, way back when.  You'd be surprised how contam-resistant Bounty is!

 

 

Yeah but it serves two purposes, the aforementioned filtration, and sanitizing the outside of the jars before I place them in my SAB.

 

 

You mean like this?

 

https://mycotopia.ne...-1484516217.jpg


Edited by catattack, 11 February 2017 - 11:17 AM.


#36 MLBjammer

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 12:36 PM

Yeah, just like that :cool:

 

That was about the time I thought: Well, let me just put the cake in something a bit smaller with nothing but the cake.  And that was when I started using the plastic quarts and pints, inspired by Chronic's glass quarts.  I would have 50 or 60 of those plastic quarts stacked everywhere, lol.



#37 MrBiscuits

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 12:59 PM

Just a helpful note on the isopropyl/ethyl (dunno which you're using, but if you can get ethyl, it's certainly the best) : 70% is more effective at killing shit, partially for the reason that MLB stated, but more so for the mechanisms of osmosis.

The extra water aids in permeation, thus more quickly allowing the alcohol to access more critical bits of the organisms you're trying to kill.

Not that all of them don't work quite effectively, just a little refinement, if you please.



#38 catattack

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 01:09 PM

Just a helpful note on the isopropyl/ethyl (dunno which you're using, but if you can get ethyl, it's certainly the best) : 70% is more effective at killing shit, partially for the reason that MLB stated, but more so for the mechanisms of osmosis.

The extra water aids in permeation, thus more quickly allowing the alcohol to access more critical bits of the organisms you're trying to kill.

Not that all of them don't work quite effectively, just a little refinement, if you please.

 

I use 91% for everything in the SAB because of the faster evaporation, 70% for anything else.



#39 MrBiscuits

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 01:14 PM

Ah...understood. I was thinking of efficacy in terms of the vacuum effect.






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