24 replies to this topic

[Sabnock]

Alright, so i posted my trip report last night in the "Storming The Gates" section, but i will pose this question here as well.

So last night, i filled up 3 00 capsules with MHRB powder. At 9:30pm i took half of a 150mg Moclobemide pill (a pharmaceutical reversible mao-a inhibitor) and at 10pm i took the other half along with the 3 capsules of MHRB.

To make a long story short (you can read my trip report if you wish), those 3 capsules of MHRB powder with Moclobemide, was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY stronger than 8 grams of MHRB with 3 grams of Rue. I don't know what happened, why it happened, or how it was able to happen, but it seems with Moclobemide, you get what appears to be an extended orally ingested "smoked dmt" type of an experience (though i wouldn't know as i've never smoked it) but i was totally unprepared for what happened last night.

Tonight i might try taking just ONE capsule of MHRB with half a Moclobemide and see how that goes. But in the meantime, does anyone have any explanation for it being THAT damn potent at such a very low dose of Mimosa?

[Sabnock]

I just thought about something here..... If 3 capsules of Mimosa with 150mgs of Moclobemide was able to do that last night, i wonder what would happen if i tried some Bridgesii cactus like that? I wonder.......... If 3 capsules of Mimosa apparently contained that much DMT that the Moclobemide was able to fully activate, then couldn't the same be done for some cactus? I'm def. going to try it out, i'll be getting me some cactus here next week so, i'll update how that goes lol

[Norman]

So to clarify, these capsules were filled with ground MHRB, not an extract?

[aliendreamtime]

Three factors. How inhibited your MAO is. Is it 20% 30% 80% 99% 100%? If you take moclobemide for days your MAO is going to be completely inhibited, which means you need only half as much DMT than if you were 50% inhibited. Did you take any moclobemide prior to this?

The MAJOR factor is that you ate the powder, instead of extracting it into water. No extractions are 100% efficient, especially simply boiling bark in water acidified with a weak acid like tartaric, citric, or acetic acid. However, your stomach can come pretty close to 100% efficiency. Its the most efficient DMT-extraction system ever.

Also, it is believed that there is some sort of MAOI CONTAINED IN MHRB called yuremamine. When you boil it, it gets destroyed. I would wager to favor that there are probably other compounds contained in the bark that are either not extracted by polar solvents, or destroyed in high heat, that synergized with the DMT and moclobemide, which wouldnt be present in a boiled extraction.

All three of these factors may have been optimal, and throw a good diet on top of that...there are many factors that can quickly add up to a much stronger than expected experience- Fasting, diet, general health, etc all change your biochemistry to some extent

Let me ask you this...When you took 8 grams of MHRB with 3g Rue, did you boil/extract it? Or take 8 grams of straight powder?

Edited by aliendreamtime, 16 December 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[aliendreamtime]

Just read some more. Supposedly yuremamine is only thought to be contained in M. tenuiflora, not M. hostilis.

But the simple answer is...because you ate the powder, instead of extracting it.

[TVCasualty]

Well this is interesting. Seems like a good way to get the most bang for your buck from MHRB, especially now that it's getting more annoying to obtain it.

However...

I just thought about something here..... If 3 capsules of Mimosa with 150mgs of Moclobemide was able to do that last night, i wonder what would happen if i tried some Bridgesii cactus like that? I wonder.......... If 3 capsules of Mimosa apparently contained that much DMT that the Moclobemide was able to fully activate, then couldn't the same be done for some cactus? I'm def. going to try it out, i'll be getting me some cactus here next week so, i'll update how that goes lol

IMO it might be best to start on the low side in terms of dosage and work your way up slowly over a few trials if combining cactus with MAOI. Some cacti have more tyramine that others and a high level of tyramine combined with an MAOI can lead to the dreaded MAOI-induced hypertensive crisis (avoiding that potentially-fatal reaction is the point of the traditional pre-trip dietary restrictions for Ayahuasca).

[Sabnock]

Norman - Yes, it was Mimosa root bark powder, in capsules, no extraction done.

Alien - The day my Moclobemide arrived, i did take a pill as soon as i opened them. Later that night when i took the Mimosa, about 8 hours had passed and it felt to me that it was almost out of my system so i took another pill. So i would assume that my MAO was completely inhibited. Also, i didn't eat anything except maybe a slight snack, that day so it was done pretty much on an empty stomach. And when i've done the 8 grams Mimosa/3 grams Rue, i just loaded em up into capsules as well. 16 capsules of Mimosa powder was my 8 gram dose, along with 6 capsules of Rue, no extraction/heating/water, just the powder and capsules. I have also done several water extractions (no boiling) to get a high dose down to a few capsules.


TV - I'm with ya there, always start low. But as for the tyramine, i don't think there is a problem with that at all. Syrian Rue/Caapi and even Moclobemide are RIMA's, and they require no dietary restrictions. So i should be good on that front.

[aliendreamtime]

Wow very interesting. I've tried moclobemide a few times, and it never seemed to be a particularly potent inhibitor for me. Everyones different.

I'll consider just taking a few grams of capsulated bark powder from now on though!

As far as the original question, I would say the MAOI must be the difference, and that difference could be the individual drugs affinity for MAO, with the moclobemide being the more powerful. Also, it could be the bioavailability. Maybe if some pharmaceutical company had a team of psychopharmacologists to make the most effective harmala pill possible, a 150mg pill might do it with such a small amount of DMT. These pharmaceutical companies are very adept at getting chemicals to absorb into the body where they wouldnt have otherwise (check out nanoparticles!)

Also, it probably made a difference that you already had some MAO inhibition prior to taking the dmt, and then reupped with more MAOI and DMT, less is going to be destroyed, as opposed to taking them both at the same time, the MAOI doesnt kick in instantly, so some DMT must get broken down.

Its a very complex question...ultimately, its hard to compare a pill to a seed containing a drug, because utlimately, you know exactly whats in the pill, and generally, can reference data with the absorption rate, bioavailability, effective dose, etc. but with a plant/seed, these are all unknowns. The concentration of alkaloids in plants always varies with genetics, growing conditions, etc. whereas a pill is produced with the intention of getting reproduceable results. It would be hard to say exactly how much total harmalas you took with the rue, and how much actually bound and inhibited you MAO. With moclobemide, you could probably put a reasonable number on it after a bit of research.

Sorry I dont know much about cactus lol The diet will benefit you either way, whether you need it or not, or to reduce the amount of tyramine you already have in your system, so that whats contained in the cactus wont 'push it over the edge' into a hypertensive crisis...better safe than sorry, nothing worse then trying to decide whether or not you need medical attention on a huge dose of a psychedelic drug

peace

Edited by aliendreamtime, 18 December 2012 - 06:48 PM.

[Sabnock]

Yup yup Alien, i believe you are correct. The Moclobemide inhibited my MAO-A enzyme completely at 300mgs (2 pills). And the small amount of Mimosa powder was able to get through completely and damn lol. So yeah, i'm def. going to experiment quite a bit with this. Earlier today i took 2 Moclobemide and one capsule of Mimosa and am feeling quite nice actually, having some sort of rainbowish inner-mind like tracers when i move my head and i am like kinda sped up a bit, feeling blasted with energy. I feel there is def. room for much experimentation with DMT and an MAOI. I'm def. going to try taking a capsule of Rue, maybe sometime this weekend or so and see how it will go. The best way i can describe some of the visual aspects of this stuff right now, is it's almost like the 4th of july, seeing sorts of fireworks or such. It's crazy man but it's awesome lol

[aliendreamtime]

Yes, this practice comes with much beauty

[Norman]

Norman - Yes, it was Mimosa root bark powder, in capsules, no extraction done.

That's absolutely nuts.
Even assuming three OO caps weighing half a gram each and a 1% DMT content, that's only 15mg of DMT.

[Sabnock]

That's absolutely nuts.
Even assuming three OO caps weighing half a gram each and a 1% DMT content, that's only 15mg of DMT.

Well, it happened, so apparently Moclobemide works incredibly well. I've noticed in trying to search up people's experiences with Moclobemide and DMT, that most people if not all of them generally say "HOLY SHIT" and never touch Moclobemide again because it came on "incredibly strong". I think, Moclobemide is just a more potent RIMA and fully inhibits MAO-A thus you only need such a small amount of DMT. That could very well explain why i among many others felt such a strong reaction with Moclobemide compared to Harmalas.

Edit - Thing is though, you don't have the "filters" that the Harmalas add to it, so it truly is like an orally dosed extended smoked DMT experience lol. It was clean, you feel the DMT. I do believe that it needs something else, because it's def. lacking the Harmala filters, but if one could perfect this it would be bad ass. Imagine for a moment powdering up 150 to 300mgs of Moclobemide, and put it into a capsule along with some individualized Harmalas, and then have another capsule of either some Mimosa powder, an extract of Viridis, or FB... That way only 2 capsules needed for a dose. Spend a day or so packing one's customized doses and store away for later use :)

I mean yeah, we have Phamahuasca and technically that falls under that category. But i feel that using Moclobemide as the primary RIMA, Harmalas for that special touch, and some DMT, it would make for one bad ass medicine.

Edited by Sabnock, 21 December 2012 - 01:40 AM.

[SillyCone]

That's absolutely nuts.
Even assuming three OO caps weighing half a gram each and a 1% DMT content, that's only 15mg of DMT.

We could count on at least 2% N,N-DMT, plus all the other unknown alkaloids (NMT, N-Oxide, etc), so I'd say at least 35-40mg active alks... Considering individual variances... (and not knowing what Sabnock describes as a strong experience, as he never smoked DMT and we're not in his head...)

[SillyCone]

Just read some more. Supposedly yuremamine is only thought to be contained in M. tenuiflora, not M. hostilis.

Ermmmm.
.
Acacia Tenuiflora = Mimosa Hostilis.
.
Just read some more :teeth:

[Sabnock]

Well Silly, i'm not so sure it's all on the count of high amount of alks. I believe its the fact that Moclobemide inhibits more MAO-A than Rue does, hence a smaller dose of DMT is needed. I mean yeah, i have some great quality inner root bark powder but even with the Rue at 3 grams the DMT from such a small amount of root bark is nowhere near doable. Let me put it this way, at 8 grams of Mimosa and 3 grams Rue, it was as strong as i'd ever wanna go. With 300mgs of Moclobemide and 1 to 3 capsules (maybe 3 grams at most) of Mimosa, it was MUCH stronger than 8 grams Mimosa/3 grams Rue. Not to mention, i can barely manage to keep Rue down these days, it makes me way too nauseous, and with Moclobemide there is no nausea except for when the Mimosa hits but can be relieved by some Cannabis.

And now that i'm out of Moclobemide and need to buy some more, i can't even find it available to buy from any site now without a prescription (when on some sites it doesn't need one) and the 300mgs are mostly out of stock and 150mgs are expensive. The IAS site i bought mine from last time is now out of stock to. I've been pissed all damn day because of it too cuz this medicine really helps me with my ADHD as well and it's the ONLY pharmaceutical i DO like and appreciate. And because the tight asses at the FDA don't wanna approve this medicine in the US because it works, now i'm out of a great fucking medicine unlike the bullshit they HAVE allowed for us. Ugh!

[SillyCone]

Never trust man made MAOI compared to what nature gave us...
Maybe it's for the better that you don't have access to that stuff...
Just sayin'...

Still, I believe my calculations are correct, there should be at least 30 to 40mg of tryptamines in 1.5g MHRB, so if your monoshit is very efficient (and thus dangerous), I can perfectly understand this could have been a very strong trip for you.

[Sabnock]

But the Moclobemide isn't dangerous at all though... It's relatively a pretty damn safe Pharma med. And believe me, i hate Big Pharma just as much as the next guy and usually don't recommend any Pharma meds but Moclobemide i have to say def. deserves the recognition. IMO, Moclobemide is WAAAAAAAAAY better than Caapi or Rue, and isn't dangerous in the least bit. If i can, i'm sticking with Moclobemide as an MAOI. I'll try some others one day, but it's fucking hard for me to even go back to Rue now because of the severe nausea it gives, but that doesn't mean i'm gonna give up on it completely. Rue is still a fav of mine, and i want to end up extracting the alks from it so maybe i can mix the alks with Moclobemide in a capsule, or either smoke it after taking Moclobemide and then Mimosa.

[SillyCone]

IMO, Moclobemide is WAAAAAAAAAY better than Caapi or Rue, and isn't dangerous in the least bit.

Are you a shaman and a psychiatrist, to make such bold claims ???

A pharmaceutical molecule way better than Ayahuasca ???

You are way out of your league, dude... The purge IS the medecine !

:spank:

[Sabnock]

Dude, the purge sucks donkey dick dude, and it isn't even necessary IME. I've had MUCH stronger experiences when i didn't purge. And Silly, let me put it to ya this way, All three things are reversible mao-a inhibitors, the Caapi, the Rue, and the pharmaceutical Moclobemide. The only difference being, Moclobemide was made and doesn't include Harmala's. Why does it make one bit of a damn difference to you anyways? Ayahuasca can be what YOU want it to be. I don't wanna go the "traditional" route, i don't wanna drink a brew, i don't want to puke my guts up and have to take an hour long dump, i just want to experience the medicine and that's that. And i CAN do that and HAVE done that and WILL continue to do that. At some point i may even try to go back to Rue but don't knock Moclobemide till ya have tried it dude, it's a pretty damn good pharmaceutical and not just for use with DMT. You have ADHD dude, you should try it, it helped me out so it should with you. I know i used to and still do bitch about the pharmaceutical industry, but all Moclobemide is, is a potent reversible maoi, it doesn't cause any horrible side effects (which i believe is the reason they won't allow it in the US, cuz it works great!), and it's just easier and simpler to use and you can witness the effects of DMT in pure clarity without the filters of the harmala alks.

And besides all that, last time i checked, Rue is toxic at high doses, and Moclobemide has VERY LOW toxicity. So no i am not a shaman, i could be one though i imagine but i am not, i just do my research.

[SillyCone]

You don't know what you're talking about, but hey, it's your life...
If you want to play little chemist without any medical supervision, that's fine with me, what I'm not too keen about, is you sharing these experiences for anyone to copy. You have no idea of the real effects of that pharma medication, nor the interactions with the shamanic molecules you're ingesting, and this, again, looks reckless.
I prefer to trust the shamans with their thousands of years of tradition and knowledge of the plants. They call Ayahuasca "the purge", it's for a very good reason. The healing doesn't happen through the hallucinations of the DMT, but by the purge of the Ayahuasca.
Yes, Ayahuasca, not harmaline and even less pharma grade MAOIs, even RIMAs...